What is a good non-synthetic brake fluid to use in the Z600? I am
going to replace my fluid and clean the mc. Thanks,
Bill in MO
Brake Fluid
Brake Fluid
Bill;
I have an article on dot 5 brake fluid change over on the ANZhonda600owners
yahoo group site. I have used it in many of my vehicles without a problem.
If you don't have a local soruce go to WWW.Eastwood.com they have a high
quality DOT 5 fluid.
Bill
I have an article on dot 5 brake fluid change over on the ANZhonda600owners
yahoo group site. I have used it in many of my vehicles without a problem.
If you don't have a local soruce go to WWW.Eastwood.com they have a high
quality DOT 5 fluid.
Bill
Re: Brake Fluid- I use.....................
Bill,
Your bleeders are on the way. For non-synthetic fluid I like Castrol
Dot 4. I master cylinder seal kits I sell are for British cars and
they all recommend Castrol Brake Fluid.
Miles
Your bleeders are on the way. For non-synthetic fluid I like Castrol
Dot 4. I master cylinder seal kits I sell are for British cars and
they all recommend Castrol Brake Fluid.
Miles
Dot 5 (Silicone) Brake Fluid
Hi Bill Penny;
Dot 5 is Silicone Brake Fluid. This article is from the anzhonda600owners
yahoo groups page.
Bill Colford
In October of 1981 a Magazine called Special Interest Autos (SIA) put
together an article "Overhauling Your Brakes for Silicone Fluid" by Robert
Couch.
This is that article (with some notes for the Honda 600).
Some notes are given when it speaks of a brake system that is not the same
as a Honda 600 system. If you are not familiar with working on your brake
system then read the Honda 600 factory shop manual and follow the
instructions and apply segments of this article when changing to Silicone
Brake Fluid.
It's Surprising how many of us ignore brakes on our special-interest cars
until the grinding starts, or it takes more than two legs to stop.
Covered here will be basic step-by-step procedure on how to convert your
collector car to silicone fluid, with the option of a complete brake-system
rebuild. There may be slight variations to the car you are going to work
on, but these directions should serve for the work and procedures to be
carried out.
Directions that come with most silicone fluids recommend empting only the
master cylinder and then bleeding through the new fluid However, you will
never get 100 percent of the old fluid and its residue out if you follow
this procedure, and silicone fluid will not repair any damage that may have
been caused by the old fluid. To get the full benefit of a trouble free
hydraulic system, I recommend a total disassembly of the braking system to
at least clean it thoroughly and to repair any possible damage that may have
begun.
Silicone fluid can also be used in your everyday car, but its real
benefits come from using it in your old car. Most old cars are driven very
little, and many of them are stored all winter. That's where trouble
begins. Regular brake fluid absorbs moisture so fast it will scare you.
For instance, if you happen to leave the id off a can of regular brake fluid
for more than a day, throw it away, as it will have absorbed air and water
at a rate that renders it unfit for use in your brake system. Silicone
fluid, on the other hand, will not absorb moisture, so there's no worry
about brake system damage during storage, and you'll have a far safer system
when you do drive your car.
Moisture is the number one enemy of brake systems. It corrodes cylinders
and ruins the seals and pistons. Silicone fluid however, is not affected by
extreme hot or cold. Silicone fluid is also compatible with synthetic or
natural rubber seals. It meets the federal safety standard for brake fluid,
and perhaps more important, will not harm the paint on your collector car if
you spill it on the finish. The fluid that I use in my restorations is made
by Electrodyne, Inc.
Now, to work on your car, First, get a paper and pencil ready for your
notes and diagrams which you may refer to during reassembly. While the car
is on the ground, loosen the rear axle nuts, if there are any, as it is a
lot easier to do this at this stage. Jack the car up and put it on jack
stands or devices that will safely hold the weight of the car. Remove the
road wheels and then take a good look at the rear drums. They will usually
be a separate unit from the hub, and are held on by setscrews, bolts, lug
clips or just plain rust.
(Note: Honda uses the rear brake drum to hold the rear wheel bearings so the
drum may have to be removed with a puller).
Back off the adjuster, then try to pull the drum off with your hands. If it
will not come off, try a hammer - but only one made of rubber, nylon or
rawhide, as cast iron drums can shatter very easily. Some heat can be used
on the drum-to-hub surface, and a propane torch will usually do.
When you have both rear drums off, proceed to the front of the car.
Remove the dust cover on the front drum, take out the cotter pin, and remove
the stub axel nut and washer. Back off the adjuster and pull off the hub
and drum unit being careful not to let the outer bearing fall on the floor.
(Note: Honda has a front disc brake system and pulling off the hub is not
necessary, removing two bolts and disconnecting the brake hose is all that
is necessary to remove the front cylinder, however you may want to remove
the disc to have it surfaced by a shop. If this is necessary then remove
the cotter pin and castle nut and pull off the splined hub and take both
the hub and disc to the shop to be surfaced.
If your car has ball bearings instead of tapered bearings, a puller may be
needed. You can by a universal hub puller, or perhaps a friend has one that
you can borrow.
Next, tap out the rear seal very carefully; you may not find a
replacement. Remove the bearings, and clean them in a suitable fluid.
After cleaning, check for scoring, breakdown of the hardened surfaces, or a
rough feel when you turn it under hand pressure. If not, pack them with
fresh wheel bearing grease and then seal them in a dirt-free place. If you
are not going to replace bearings and they are the tapered style, do not mix
the tapered rollers and their races.
Check the drums to see if the braking surface is smooth and shiny. Check
also for very fine hairline cracks from heat buildup and embrittlement, and
for grooves where the rivets or metal of shoes may have run in. If there is
any question about their condition, take them to a brake shop for turning.
Tell the shop that you want only a very minimum amount removed to clean them
up. Your drums may be to far gone to cut; there is a maximum amount that a
drum can be cut by law for safety's sake. If this is the case you might
find new ones or good used ones, or you can get the old ones sleeved, but
this latter remedy is very expensive and should be your last resort.
Next, check your linings. Look for dampness, cracking of the material,
and see how much meat is left on them. If they need to be replaced you may
find new ones. If you can't, any good brake or automotive shop can reline
your old ones.
The wheel cylinders are next. Before you remove them, lift up each
cylinder's dust cover to see if it is dry. If not, they are leaking and
will need new seals. Remove the cylinders and then see if the bleeder is
free to come out. I have known people who have rebuilt a cylinder only to
break off a frozen bleeder when they were ready to bleed the system. A
little heat here will not hurt if the bleeders are frozen, but you will have
to rebuild. If the pistons will not move, a little heat here will also
help, as will good overnight soaking in a rust dissolving fluid.
(Note: Honda uses aluminum for its wheel, master and on some models power
booster. Soaking them in a rust dissolving fluid will normally not be
necessary, just open all the openings, and toss them into a bucket of clean
water. As stated earlier, brake fluid absorbs moisture, placing them in
water will liquefy the crystallized fluid and free up the pistons and
bleeder. And, may even save your seals. )
Clean out the cylinders and look for pitting on the surface of the
cylinder. If it is deep, you cannot hone them out, because your cylinder
will be too large for the new seals. In this case you will have to replace
them, or you can have the old ones sleeved. Use stainless steel for
sleeves.
(Note: Stainless steel sleeves can crack an aluminum casting, the better
way is to have them brass sleeved.)
If they need to be honed, do so with the cylinder submerged in kerosene,
starting with a medium stone. Hone just a little at a time until you have
removed the pitting, and then finish with a fine stone. Be sure to clean
them thoroughly. If your cylinders do not need honing and the seals are
very smooth on their edges, clean the cylinders and their parts and
reassemble with the parts wet with fluid.
(Note: There are rebuild fluids available that are the best for
reassembly, also when cleaning your cylinders, use lacquer thinner as a
final rinse. It leaves no residue where other cleaning fluids may cause
contamination.)
Pay careful attention to cleanliness at this point; even vary small
particles of dirt can quickly ruin a cylinder.
Now check the rear axle seals for leaks. If the backing plates are wet
it may be oil leaking from the axle, and you don't need oil on those new
shoes. You will need to pull either the hub-axle unit or the hub off the
axle to replace the seal. That's why you loosened the axle nut at the
beginning of this job. You may need a puller to get the hub off; don't use
a hammer in any case. The seal should have a number on it and any good
automotive store should be able to supply a new one. If the surface are of
the hub or axle where the seal runs is badly scored, cover it with a piece
of something called "speedy sleeve" made by Chicago Rawhide. It's made of
very thin steel and slides over the damaged surface. An installation tool
is included with the sleeve. No machining is necessary, and you can use the
standard seal.
Install the wheel cylinders, replacing any old, rusted hardware. Free up
and/or clean the adjusters and smear them with anti-seize compound. Install
the shoes and then back the adjusters all the way off. Put the drums back
on, and don't use that old cotter pin no matter how good it looks-it won't
be as strong as a fresh one. Adjust the shoes so that you have an even drag
on all four wheels. Check this by rotating the drums after you have made
your adjustments.
Remove the master cylinder and check it as you did the wheel cylinders.
Be careful when you remove the circlip that holds the seals and piston in.
Otherwise the whole assembly can fly apart on you.
Remove all the brake lines and check for heavy rust and chafing. If your
old ones are good, flush them out with a suitable fluid, dry them well, and
re-install. Also check the rubber lines for cracking and chafing and
replace or clean them as well. If your car has copper brake lines and you
are planning to drive it. I suggest you replace them with steel lines for
safety's sake. If your prize is for show only, and it needs to be 100
percent, then you can stay with copper.
(Note: Honda 600's have a proportioning valve between the front and rear
brake lines. If your vehicle has been sitting for a very long time, it too
may need to be replaced or rebuilt. But at a minimum it should be flushed.
The recommended fluid to flush brake systems is completely "DENATURED
ALCOHOL" and to clean all rubber parts. Lacquer thinner is best for
cylinders when the rubber parts are removed. )
Next, fill the system with silicone brake fluid and bleed the system
out, starting with the wheel farthest from the fluid reservoir tank until
all air is removed. [CAUTION pumping the brake pedal or moving the brake
pedal excessively will cause bubbles in the system and make bleeding vary
difficult.] Don't use the bleed fluid in the master cylinder, as it will be
full of tiny air bubbles hat will gather in the system in time, and cause a
soft pedal. If you find it hard to get a good pedal, go around the car and
readjust the shoes. They may have centered themselves, and are no longer in
proper adjustment. When you are finished bleeding, get a friend to push on
eh pedal as hard as he can while you check all the joints in the system for
high pressure leaks.
Now you can test drive the brakes, using them gently for a mile or so to
bed the new shoes. Then try a couple of quick stops-not lockups-at forty or
fifty. Be sure no one is behind you, and warn any passengers of your
intentions. Stopping like this will usually reveal any pulling of the
brakes. If they do pull, check the shoes for even adjustment again.
(Note: Reference is made to centering the brake shoes, this is only with
drum brakes, and the Honda rear brakes can be centered by adjusting them all
he way out until the drum will not turn, then tap the backing plate with a
small hammer causing them to center. Then back them off so there is a very
light drag on the drum from the shoes. Properly assembled disc brakes do
not need adjustment. If the front disc's have rust on them 80 grit sand
paper on a orbital sander will remove the rust and give a good braking
surface. Swirls from the orbital sander will keep the new pads from
squeaking. )
Dot 5 is Silicone Brake Fluid. This article is from the anzhonda600owners
yahoo groups page.
Bill Colford
In October of 1981 a Magazine called Special Interest Autos (SIA) put
together an article "Overhauling Your Brakes for Silicone Fluid" by Robert
Couch.
This is that article (with some notes for the Honda 600).
Some notes are given when it speaks of a brake system that is not the same
as a Honda 600 system. If you are not familiar with working on your brake
system then read the Honda 600 factory shop manual and follow the
instructions and apply segments of this article when changing to Silicone
Brake Fluid.
It's Surprising how many of us ignore brakes on our special-interest cars
until the grinding starts, or it takes more than two legs to stop.
Covered here will be basic step-by-step procedure on how to convert your
collector car to silicone fluid, with the option of a complete brake-system
rebuild. There may be slight variations to the car you are going to work
on, but these directions should serve for the work and procedures to be
carried out.
Directions that come with most silicone fluids recommend empting only the
master cylinder and then bleeding through the new fluid However, you will
never get 100 percent of the old fluid and its residue out if you follow
this procedure, and silicone fluid will not repair any damage that may have
been caused by the old fluid. To get the full benefit of a trouble free
hydraulic system, I recommend a total disassembly of the braking system to
at least clean it thoroughly and to repair any possible damage that may have
begun.
Silicone fluid can also be used in your everyday car, but its real
benefits come from using it in your old car. Most old cars are driven very
little, and many of them are stored all winter. That's where trouble
begins. Regular brake fluid absorbs moisture so fast it will scare you.
For instance, if you happen to leave the id off a can of regular brake fluid
for more than a day, throw it away, as it will have absorbed air and water
at a rate that renders it unfit for use in your brake system. Silicone
fluid, on the other hand, will not absorb moisture, so there's no worry
about brake system damage during storage, and you'll have a far safer system
when you do drive your car.
Moisture is the number one enemy of brake systems. It corrodes cylinders
and ruins the seals and pistons. Silicone fluid however, is not affected by
extreme hot or cold. Silicone fluid is also compatible with synthetic or
natural rubber seals. It meets the federal safety standard for brake fluid,
and perhaps more important, will not harm the paint on your collector car if
you spill it on the finish. The fluid that I use in my restorations is made
by Electrodyne, Inc.
Now, to work on your car, First, get a paper and pencil ready for your
notes and diagrams which you may refer to during reassembly. While the car
is on the ground, loosen the rear axle nuts, if there are any, as it is a
lot easier to do this at this stage. Jack the car up and put it on jack
stands or devices that will safely hold the weight of the car. Remove the
road wheels and then take a good look at the rear drums. They will usually
be a separate unit from the hub, and are held on by setscrews, bolts, lug
clips or just plain rust.
(Note: Honda uses the rear brake drum to hold the rear wheel bearings so the
drum may have to be removed with a puller).
Back off the adjuster, then try to pull the drum off with your hands. If it
will not come off, try a hammer - but only one made of rubber, nylon or
rawhide, as cast iron drums can shatter very easily. Some heat can be used
on the drum-to-hub surface, and a propane torch will usually do.
When you have both rear drums off, proceed to the front of the car.
Remove the dust cover on the front drum, take out the cotter pin, and remove
the stub axel nut and washer. Back off the adjuster and pull off the hub
and drum unit being careful not to let the outer bearing fall on the floor.
(Note: Honda has a front disc brake system and pulling off the hub is not
necessary, removing two bolts and disconnecting the brake hose is all that
is necessary to remove the front cylinder, however you may want to remove
the disc to have it surfaced by a shop. If this is necessary then remove
the cotter pin and castle nut and pull off the splined hub and take both
the hub and disc to the shop to be surfaced.
If your car has ball bearings instead of tapered bearings, a puller may be
needed. You can by a universal hub puller, or perhaps a friend has one that
you can borrow.
Next, tap out the rear seal very carefully; you may not find a
replacement. Remove the bearings, and clean them in a suitable fluid.
After cleaning, check for scoring, breakdown of the hardened surfaces, or a
rough feel when you turn it under hand pressure. If not, pack them with
fresh wheel bearing grease and then seal them in a dirt-free place. If you
are not going to replace bearings and they are the tapered style, do not mix
the tapered rollers and their races.
Check the drums to see if the braking surface is smooth and shiny. Check
also for very fine hairline cracks from heat buildup and embrittlement, and
for grooves where the rivets or metal of shoes may have run in. If there is
any question about their condition, take them to a brake shop for turning.
Tell the shop that you want only a very minimum amount removed to clean them
up. Your drums may be to far gone to cut; there is a maximum amount that a
drum can be cut by law for safety's sake. If this is the case you might
find new ones or good used ones, or you can get the old ones sleeved, but
this latter remedy is very expensive and should be your last resort.
Next, check your linings. Look for dampness, cracking of the material,
and see how much meat is left on them. If they need to be replaced you may
find new ones. If you can't, any good brake or automotive shop can reline
your old ones.
The wheel cylinders are next. Before you remove them, lift up each
cylinder's dust cover to see if it is dry. If not, they are leaking and
will need new seals. Remove the cylinders and then see if the bleeder is
free to come out. I have known people who have rebuilt a cylinder only to
break off a frozen bleeder when they were ready to bleed the system. A
little heat here will not hurt if the bleeders are frozen, but you will have
to rebuild. If the pistons will not move, a little heat here will also
help, as will good overnight soaking in a rust dissolving fluid.
(Note: Honda uses aluminum for its wheel, master and on some models power
booster. Soaking them in a rust dissolving fluid will normally not be
necessary, just open all the openings, and toss them into a bucket of clean
water. As stated earlier, brake fluid absorbs moisture, placing them in
water will liquefy the crystallized fluid and free up the pistons and
bleeder. And, may even save your seals. )
Clean out the cylinders and look for pitting on the surface of the
cylinder. If it is deep, you cannot hone them out, because your cylinder
will be too large for the new seals. In this case you will have to replace
them, or you can have the old ones sleeved. Use stainless steel for
sleeves.
(Note: Stainless steel sleeves can crack an aluminum casting, the better
way is to have them brass sleeved.)
If they need to be honed, do so with the cylinder submerged in kerosene,
starting with a medium stone. Hone just a little at a time until you have
removed the pitting, and then finish with a fine stone. Be sure to clean
them thoroughly. If your cylinders do not need honing and the seals are
very smooth on their edges, clean the cylinders and their parts and
reassemble with the parts wet with fluid.
(Note: There are rebuild fluids available that are the best for
reassembly, also when cleaning your cylinders, use lacquer thinner as a
final rinse. It leaves no residue where other cleaning fluids may cause
contamination.)
Pay careful attention to cleanliness at this point; even vary small
particles of dirt can quickly ruin a cylinder.
Now check the rear axle seals for leaks. If the backing plates are wet
it may be oil leaking from the axle, and you don't need oil on those new
shoes. You will need to pull either the hub-axle unit or the hub off the
axle to replace the seal. That's why you loosened the axle nut at the
beginning of this job. You may need a puller to get the hub off; don't use
a hammer in any case. The seal should have a number on it and any good
automotive store should be able to supply a new one. If the surface are of
the hub or axle where the seal runs is badly scored, cover it with a piece
of something called "speedy sleeve" made by Chicago Rawhide. It's made of
very thin steel and slides over the damaged surface. An installation tool
is included with the sleeve. No machining is necessary, and you can use the
standard seal.
Install the wheel cylinders, replacing any old, rusted hardware. Free up
and/or clean the adjusters and smear them with anti-seize compound. Install
the shoes and then back the adjusters all the way off. Put the drums back
on, and don't use that old cotter pin no matter how good it looks-it won't
be as strong as a fresh one. Adjust the shoes so that you have an even drag
on all four wheels. Check this by rotating the drums after you have made
your adjustments.
Remove the master cylinder and check it as you did the wheel cylinders.
Be careful when you remove the circlip that holds the seals and piston in.
Otherwise the whole assembly can fly apart on you.
Remove all the brake lines and check for heavy rust and chafing. If your
old ones are good, flush them out with a suitable fluid, dry them well, and
re-install. Also check the rubber lines for cracking and chafing and
replace or clean them as well. If your car has copper brake lines and you
are planning to drive it. I suggest you replace them with steel lines for
safety's sake. If your prize is for show only, and it needs to be 100
percent, then you can stay with copper.
(Note: Honda 600's have a proportioning valve between the front and rear
brake lines. If your vehicle has been sitting for a very long time, it too
may need to be replaced or rebuilt. But at a minimum it should be flushed.
The recommended fluid to flush brake systems is completely "DENATURED
ALCOHOL" and to clean all rubber parts. Lacquer thinner is best for
cylinders when the rubber parts are removed. )
Next, fill the system with silicone brake fluid and bleed the system
out, starting with the wheel farthest from the fluid reservoir tank until
all air is removed. [CAUTION pumping the brake pedal or moving the brake
pedal excessively will cause bubbles in the system and make bleeding vary
difficult.] Don't use the bleed fluid in the master cylinder, as it will be
full of tiny air bubbles hat will gather in the system in time, and cause a
soft pedal. If you find it hard to get a good pedal, go around the car and
readjust the shoes. They may have centered themselves, and are no longer in
proper adjustment. When you are finished bleeding, get a friend to push on
eh pedal as hard as he can while you check all the joints in the system for
high pressure leaks.
Now you can test drive the brakes, using them gently for a mile or so to
bed the new shoes. Then try a couple of quick stops-not lockups-at forty or
fifty. Be sure no one is behind you, and warn any passengers of your
intentions. Stopping like this will usually reveal any pulling of the
brakes. If they do pull, check the shoes for even adjustment again.
(Note: Reference is made to centering the brake shoes, this is only with
drum brakes, and the Honda rear brakes can be centered by adjusting them all
he way out until the drum will not turn, then tap the backing plate with a
small hammer causing them to center. Then back them off so there is a very
light drag on the drum from the shoes. Properly assembled disc brakes do
not need adjustment. If the front disc's have rust on them 80 grit sand
paper on a orbital sander will remove the rust and give a good braking
surface. Swirls from the orbital sander will keep the new pads from
squeaking. )