Honda N600 trivial question

zayjspeed · Post by **zayjspeed** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:56 pm

--- In 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, Kevin Lister
All Right! thank you Kevin and thank you Dale!
::::::::::::::::::::Zay
wrote:

> Hi Mario,
> �
> I'm not sure where you got the idea that solder doesn't make a good

connection. Soldering makes excellent electrical connections.
Soldering is used in electronics that are used in far more demanding
applications that automobiles. I suspect the reason soldering is not
used in car wiring is simply because it costs less to crimp than it
does to solder. In my long career in electrical engineering I can
safely say that I've seen far more failed crimp and wire-wrap
connections than solder connections.

> �
> Just my $0.02 worth! ;o)
> �
> kev
> --- On Thu, 8/14/08, Mario Montes wrote:
> From: Mario Montes
> Subject: Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: Honda N600 trivial question
> To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thursday, August 14, 2008, 11:14 AM
> Actually, solder is only slightly better then those acorn nuts in

an automotive application.

> The best connection is CRIMP connections, but you need a HIGH

QUALITY crimp tool as well as terminal connectors, not any of those
red/blue/yellow ones.

> (Think of it, you NEVER see soldered connections in OEM wiring harnesses)
> Solder can crack, corrode, etc, on top of just being a high

resistance joint if both connected wires aren't cleaned or heated
properly while soldered.

> Also, can you explain your post more? Can I run the 10-12 gauge

from the battery to the mag switch then run a 2 gauge wire from the
starter to the battery negative and be ok? My understanding is that
the amperage is drawn through the ground wire, so that would make
sense.

> Mario
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:56 AM, zayjspeed wrote:
> --- In 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com, goinhm@ wrote:
> > And remember the words of the great Vince lombardi (who?) "A
> chain is only as good as it's weakest link" make sure that you run at
> least a 10~12 gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter
> mount bolt.
> Solder your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS THAT YOU
> CRIMP SOLDER ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a tune up run
> ground from block to frame you can heve 460 amp. that will = .050 Ma.
> if you do not have a solid ground = to +
> Happy twisting every one the "M" mechanic!
> :::::::::::: ::::::::: ::::::::: :::::::Zay Speed
> > I use a type 51 battery.
> > Your local auto parts dealer will sell battery cables which will
> work for
> > you. Pick a
> > red sheathed cable which has the extra pigtail so you can connect
> to your 45
> > amp
> > primary fuse.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > Darn. I just saw in the service manual that the starter is rated
> at a
> > "Constrained Current" of 460 amps or less.
> > I guess there goes my idea of using a motorcycle battery...
> > Thanks for the quick response!
> > Another quick question, is there an "off the shelf" able to be
> bought at a
> > parts store battery available for these cars?
> > If not, anyone use a dry or gel cell and mounted it where the
> spare tire
> > went on the smaller engined cars?
> > Anyone have the specs on the battery it needs (Cold cranking amps,
> capacity,
> > etc)?
> > Thanks again,
> > Mario
> > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM, geez_tech > (mailto:tmspeer@) > wrote:
> > Yes, a regular one will do from places like Autozone, Pep Boys, etc.
> > I think mine measured 32"and you can get them in black or red.
> > Mike
> > --- In _2cylinderhondas@ 2cylinderhon2cy_
> > (mailto:2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com) , gary cushman
> > wrote:
> > > OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for that nasty word!!
> I
> > looked at my Battery Cables and they are more like a light car
> cable,
> > I dont have the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals on my
> car,
> > I was at Walmart looking at the no lead cables, which are the same
> > size as mine
> > > G
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: mafoose_zxt
> > > To: _2cylinderhondas@ 2cylinderhon2cy_
> > (mailto:2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com)
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:46:53 PM
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> > > On the quest to get my car that's sat for almost 14yrs running,
> I
> > have
> > > a quick question.
> > > What size (gauge) wire should I run from the battery to the
> starter?
> > > It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that wire is
> like
> > > 10-12 gauge, is that enough for this car?
> > > Thanks!
> > > Mario
> > ************ **Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your
> budget?
> > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
> > (http://autos. aol.com/cars- BMW-128-2008/ expert-review?
> ncid=aolaut00050000 000017 )

friend · Post by **friend** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:58 pm

Ok, ready set think... it's a 12 volt battery and 12 volt system with a couple of hundred cranking amps (depending on the battery). The wire will be the same for all 12 volt systems. Go to the local Auto Zone and pick up the right length of battery cable. This is not rocket science.
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of > gary cushman > Sent:
> Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:51
> PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re:
> [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for that nasty word!! I > looked at my Battery Cables and they are more like a light car cable, I dont > have the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals on my car, I was at > Walmart looking at the no lead cables, which are the same size as mine
> G
> -----
> Original Message ----
> From: mafoose_zxt
>
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008
> 12:46:53 PM
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> On the quest to get my car that's sat for almost 14yrs running, I have > a > quick question.
> What size (gauge) wire should I run from the battery to
> the starter?
> It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that
> wire is like
> 10-12 gauge, is that enough for this
> car?
> Thanks!
> Mario

Mike and Tami Speer · Post by **Mike and Tami Speer** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:06 pm

And after sitting for 14 years the battery and cable may be just the beginning of what will be needed to get it running as I am finding out with my N600.
So far everything you have mentioned for me to check on mine is just as you said Bill, I’m getting more things ironed out but I still don’t have mine running.
Mike

cotton · Post by **cotton** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:33 pm

I've got mine running but not stopping. Don't really know, understand
where the problem lies. If I ever get that figgered out I may get some stopping power. Lines are all open MC seems operateble, cleaned booster and it seems good, can bleed it and mc and front brakes. Get a little pedal and can stop but not too fast. I get fluid to driver rear wheel but not to passenger side even tho the line is open. Pulled driver wheel again thinking piston may have stuck and moved piston back and forth. Still won't pump fluid to other wheel. Not knowing what is wrong, it would cost the value of the car to buy rebuilt parts for complete brake overhaul. Guess I keep plugging at it. Might get lucky.
Good luck on yours Mike.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Mike and Tami
> Speer
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Thursday, August 14, 2008 10:06
> PM
> Subject:
> RE: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600
> trivial question
> And after sitting for
> 14 years the battery and cable may be just the beginning of what will be > needed to get it running as I am finding out with my > N600.
> So far everything you
> have mentioned for me to check on mine is just as you said Bill, I�m getting > more things ironed out but I still don�t have mine > running.
> Mike
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto: 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com ]
> On Behalf Of
> billmyong@earthlink .net
> Sent:
> Thursday, August 14, 2008 7:57
> PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> RE: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600
> trivial question
> Ok, ready set
> think... it's a 12 volt battery and 12 volt system with a couple of > hundred cranking amps (depending on the battery). The wire will be the > same for all 12 volt systems. Go to the local Auto Zone and pick up the > right length of battery cable. This is not rocket science.
> Bill
> > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > From:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > [mailto: 2cylinderho ndas@yahoogroups .com ]
> > On Behalf Of
> > gary
> > cushman
> > Sent:
> > Wednesday,
> > August 13, 2008 12:51 PM
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject:
> > Re: [2cylinderhondas] Honda
> > N600 trivial question
> > OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for
> > that nasty word!! I looked at my Battery Cables and they are more like a > > light car cable, I dont have the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals > > on my car, I was at Walmart looking at the no lead cables, which are the > > same size as mine
> > G
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: mafoose_zxt
> >
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Wednesday,
> > August 13, 2008 12:46:53 PM
> > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial
> > question
> > On the
> > quest to get my car that's sat for almost 14yrs running, I have > > a quick > > question.
> > What size (gauge) wire should I run from the battery to the > > starter?
> > It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that wire > > is like > > 10-12 gauge, is that enough for this > > car?
> > Thanks!
> > Mario
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked
> by AVG - http://www.avg. com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database:
> 270.6.3/1611 - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:20 AM

Mike and Tami Speer · Post by **Mike and Tami Speer** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:40 pm

Thanks, my brakes also don’t work and that will be my next project on this with rebuilding the master cylinder, front calipers and wheel cylinders. My front lines are also dry rotted and who knows what the rear hose is like inside of it. Have you tried to blow compressed air through the brake line running from the left to the right side while it was completely disconnected? Or is it not even coming out of the left wheel cylinder?
Mike

Mario Montes · Post by **Mario Montes** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:33 pm

No, I'm going to use a starter mounting bolt to the neg terminal.
The + goes to the starter solenoid (or magnetic switch as the FSM calls it).

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 1:38 PM, geez_tech
Most all the battery cables are 0 to 2 gauge at auto parts stores,
> the one I bought at Kragen is just as thick as my factory positive
> cable.
> You mentioned "run a 2 gauge wire from the starter to the
> battery negative and be ok?" I rhink you meant to say run the cable
> from the starter to the battery positive, right?
> Mike
> --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> , "Mario Montes"
> wrote:
> > Actually, solder is only slightly better then those acorn nuts in an
> > automotive application.
> > The best connection is CRIMP connections, but you need a HIGH
> QUALITY crimp
> > tool as well as terminal connectors, not any of those
> red/blue/yellow ones.
> > (Think of it, you NEVER see soldered connections in OEM wiring
> harnesses)
> > Solder can crack, corrode, etc, on top of just being a high
> resistance joint
> > if both connected wires aren't cleaned or heated properly while
> soldered.
> > Also, can you explain your post more? Can I run the 10-12 gauge
> from the
> > battery to the mag switch then run a 2 gauge wire from the starter
> to the
> > battery negative and be ok? My understanding is that the amperage
> is drawn
> > through the ground wire, so that would make sense.
> > Mario
> > On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 10:56 AM, zayjspeed wrote:
> > > --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> 40yahoogroups.com
> >,
> > > goinhm@ wrote:
> > > > And remember the words of the great Vince lombardi (who?) "A
> > > chain is only as good as it's weakest link" make sure that you
> run at
> > > least a 10~12 gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter
> > > mount bolt.
> > > Solder your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS THAT YOU
> > > CRIMP SOLDER ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a tune up run
> > > ground from block to frame you can heve 460 amp. that will = .050
> Ma.
> > > if you do not have a solid ground = to +
> > > Happy twisting every one the "M" mechanic!
> > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Zay Speed
> > > > I use a type 51 battery.
> > > > Your local auto parts dealer will sell battery cables which will
> > > work for
> > > > you. Pick a
> > > > red sheathed cable which has the extra pigtail so you can
> connect
> > > to your 45
> > > > amp
> > > > primary fuse.
> > > > good luck,
> > > > Dale
> > > > Darn. I just saw in the service manual that the starter is rated
> > > at a
> > > > "Constrained Current" of 460 amps or less.
> > > > I guess there goes my idea of using a motorcycle battery...
> > > > Thanks for the quick response!
> > > > Another quick question, is there an "off the shelf" able to be
> > > bought at a
> > > > parts store battery available for these cars?
> > > > If not, anyone use a dry or gel cell and mounted it where the
> > > spare tire
> > > > went on the smaller engined cars?
> > > > Anyone have the specs on the battery it needs (Cold cranking
> amps,
> > > capacity,
> > > > etc)?
> > > > Thanks again,
> > > > Mario
> > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM, geez_tech > > > (mailto:
> tmspeer@
> ) > wrote:
> > > > Yes, a regular one will do from places like Autozone, Pep Boys,
> etc.
> > > > I think mine measured 32"and you can get them in black or red.
> > > > Mike
> > > > --- In _2cylinderhondas@2cylinderhon2cy_
> > > > (mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> 40yahoogroups.com
> >)
> > > , gary cushman
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for that nasty word!!
> > > I
> > > > looked at my Battery Cables and they are more like a light car
> > > cable,
> > > > I dont have the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals on my
> > > car,
> > > > I was at Walmart looking at the no lead cables, which are the
> same
> > > > size as mine
> > > > > G
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > From: mafoose_zxt
> > > > > To: _2cylinderhondas@2cylinderhon2cy_
> > > > (mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> 40yahoogroups.com
> >)
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:46:53 PM
> > > > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> > > > > On the quest to get my car that's sat for almost 14yrs
> running,
> > > I
> > > > have
> > > > > a quick question.
> > > > > What size (gauge) wire should I run from the battery to the
> > > starter?
> > > > > It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that wire is
> > > like
> > > > > 10-12 gauge, is that enough for this car?
> > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > Mario
> > > > **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in
> your
> > > budget?
> > > > Read reviews on AOL Autos.
> > > > (
> http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?
> > > ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )

Mario Montes · Post by **Mario Montes** » Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:42 pm

Thanks all for the responses and guidance!
As for a battery, check this out:
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc680series.htm
I know guys running this on high compression 3.2l Datsun engines with no problems!
And, being completely sealed, you can mount it anywhere!
Considering my airbox is fully rusted out, I'm going to be putting it where the airbox went. If I can get the engine to start and it has no knocks or other ailments, I'll probably convert it to efi as the carbs on my motorcycle are driving me crazy and the last thing I need is another tempermantal carb! ;-)
Does anyone know how hot the engine compartment gets in these air cooled beasts? The non metal jacket batteries are about $30 cheaper and available locally, while the metal jacket ones must be shipped out from cali.
Just passing it along, Mario

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 8:06 PM, Mike and Tami Speer
And after sitting for 14 years the battery
> and cable may be just the beginning of what will be needed to get it running as > I am finding out with my N600.
> So far everything you have mentioned for
> me to check on mine is just as you said Bill, I'm getting more things > ironed out but I still don't have mine running.
> Mike
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> ]
> On Behalf Of
> billmyong@...
> Sent:
> Thursday, August 14, 2008
> 7:57 PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> RE: [2cylinderhondas]
> Honda N600 trivial question
> Ok, ready set think... it's a 12
> volt battery and 12 volt system with a couple of hundred cranking amps > (depending on the battery). The wire will be the same for all 12 volt > systems. Go to the local Auto Zone and pick up the right length of > battery cable. This is not rocket science.
> Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > ]
> > On Behalf Of
> > gary cushman
> > Sent:
> > Wednesday, August 13, 2008
> > 12:51 PM
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject:
> > Re: [2cylinderhondas]
> > Honda N600 trivial question
> > OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for that nasty word!! I > > looked at my Battery Cables and they are more like a light car cable, I dont > > have the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals on my car, I was at Walmart > > looking at the no lead cables, which are the same size as mine
> > G
> > ----- Original Message
> > ----
> > From: mafoose_zxt > mafoose@...
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:46:53 PM
> > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> > On the quest to get my car that's sat for almost 14yrs
> > running, I have
> > a quick question.
> > What size (gauge) wire should I run from the battery to the starter?
> > It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that wire is like
> > 10-12 gauge, is that enough for this car?
> > Thanks!
> > Mario
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG -
> http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.3/1611 - Release Date: 8/14/2008 6:20 AM

cotton · Post by **cotton** » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:17 am

They say if you read long enough you may learn something.
I just did. Been wondering what and were the Magnetic Switch was. Thanks.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Mario Montes
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Friday, August 15, 2008 12:32
> AM
> Subject:
> Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: Honda
> N600 trivial question
> No, I'm going to use a starter mounting bolt to the neg
> terminal.
> The + goes to the starter solenoid (or magnetic switch as the FSM > calls it).
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 1:38 PM, geez_tech
> tmspeer@.... com
> wrote:
> > Most all the battery cables are 0 to 2 gauge at auto parts stores,
> > the one I bought at Kragen is just as thick as my factory positive
> > cable.
> > You mentioned "run a 2 gauge wire from the starter to
> > the
> > battery negative and be ok?" I rhink you meant to say run the cable
> > from the starter to the battery positive, right?
> > Mike
> > --- In
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > , "Mario Montes"
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Actually, solder is only slightly better then those
> > acorn nuts in an
> > > automotive application.
> > > The best connection
> > is CRIMP connections, but you need a HIGH
> > QUALITY crimp
> > > tool as
> > well as terminal connectors, not any of those
> > red/blue/yellow
> > ones.
> > > (Think of it, you NEVER see soldered connections in OEM wiring
> > harnesses)
> > > Solder can crack, corrode, etc, on top of
> > just being a high
> > resistance joint
> > > if both connected wires
> > aren't cleaned or heated properly while
> > soldered.
> > > Also,
> > can you explain your post more? Can I run the 10-12 gauge > > from > > the > > > battery to the mag switch then run a 2 gauge wire from the > > starter > > to the > > > battery negative and be ok? My understanding is > > that the amperage > > is drawn > > > through the ground wire, so that > > would make sense.
> > > Mario
> > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2008
> > at 10:56 AM, zayjspeed wrote:
> > > > ---
> > In
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > 40yahoogroups. com
> > >,
> > > > goinhm@ wrote:
> > > > > And remember the words
> > of the great Vince lombardi (who?) "A
> > > > chain is only as good as
> > it's weakest link" make sure that you
> > run at
> > > > least a 10~12
> > gauge wire from bat - to regulator mount to starter
> > > > mount
> > bolt.
> > > > Solder your own eye-let on the wires NO BUTT CONECTORS > > THAT YOU > > > > CRIMP SOLDER ONLY! and this is for for you Mr. in a > > tune up run > > > > ground from block to frame you can heve 460 amp.
> > that will = .050
> > Ma.
> > > > if you do not have a solid ground = to
> > +
> > > > Happy twisting every one the "M" mechanic!
> > :::::::::::: ::::::::: ::::::::: :::::::Zay Speed
> > > > > I use a type 51 battery.
> > > > > Your local auto parts dealer will sell battery cables > > which will > > > > work for > > > > > you. Pick a
> > > red sheathed cable which has the extra pigtail so you can
> > connect
> > > > to your 45
> > > > > amp
> > primary fuse.
> > > > > good luck,
> > > Dale
> > Darn. I just saw in the service manual that the starter is rated
> > > at a
> > > > > "Constrained Current" of 460 amps or
> > less.
> > > > > I guess there goes my idea of using a motorcycle
> > battery...
> > > > > Thanks for the quick
> > response!
> > > > > Another quick question, is
> > there an "off the shelf" able to be
> > > > bought at a
> > > parts store battery available for these cars?
> > > > > If not,
> > anyone use a dry or gel cell and mounted it where the > > > > spare > > tire > > > > > went on the smaller engined cars?
> > Anyone have the specs on the battery it needs (Cold cranking
> > amps,
> > > > capacity,
> > > > > etc)?
> > Thanks again,
> > > > > Mario
> > > > > On
> > Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:01 PM, geez_tech > (mailto:
> > tmspeer@
> > ) >
> > wrote:
> > > > > Yes, a regular one will do from
> > places like Autozone, Pep Boys,
> > etc.
> > > > > I think mine
> > measured 32"and you can get them in black or red.
> > Mike
> > > > > --- In
> > _2cylinderhondas@ 2cylinderhon2cy_
> > (mailto:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > 40yahoogroups. com
> > >)
> > > > , gary cushman
> > wrote:
> > > > OOOhhhh the M word.....I was repremended for that nasty > > word!!
> > > > I
> > > > > looked at my Battery Cables and they
> > are more like a light car
> > > > cable,
> > > > > I dont have
> > the foggiest idea of gage? these are originals on my
> > car,
> > > > > I was at Walmart looking at the no lead cables, which > > are the > > same > > > > > size as mine
> > G
> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > > > > From: mafoose_zxt
> > > > To: _2cylinderhondas@ 2cylinderhon2cy_
> > > > > (mailto:
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > > 40yahoogroups. com
> > >)
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:46:53 PM
> > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Honda N600 trivial question
> > > > > > On the quest to get my
> > car that's sat for almost 14yrs
> > running,
> > > > I
> > > have
> > > > > > a quick question.
> > > > > > What size (gauge) wire should I run from the
> > battery to the
> > > > starter?
> > > > It's basically a motorcycle right? On motorcycles that wire > > is > > > > like > > > > > > 10-12 gauge, is that enough for > > this car?
> > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > Mario
> > ************ **Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in
> > your
> > > > budget?
> > > > > Read reviews on AOL
> > Autos.
> > > > > (
> > http://autos. aol.com/cars- BMW-128-2008/ expert-review?
> > > ncid=aolaut00050000 000017 )