--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "James Hawkins" wrote:
> Dale, I sure wish I had your knowledge. You reminded me of one point that has happened to me several times. Spark plugs not firing under compression after being flooded. Something in the gas [mtbe?] will foul the plugs and not let them fire thru. I have started V8s by cleaning two plugs when it wouldn't fire a lick. Learned that the hard way.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: goinhm@...
> To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 2:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: 1971 AN600 Won't Start
> What I gather from you posts is that;
> 1) it ran fine at some time in the past
> 2) it sat for a period of time without being used
> 3) it doesn't run now
> 4) you are a novice at auto mechanics
> here are some things for you to consider;
> 1) The problem is probably something minor and is probably related to the fuel system or electrical system
> 2) If you have fuel, air, compression, ignition, and proper timing, the engine will start. So far, the only item I suspect is present is the air .... it is everywhere. You need to check out the other items.
> a) run a compression test. It should be around 160 psi
> b) you tell me you have spark (ignition) but I suspect you are not testing for spark under compression. An inline spark plug tester would help answer this question. There are other ways to check but I would focus at this time on the other items.
> c) check the ignition timing. An easy way is to hook up a 12 volts bulb (or voltmeter) between the blue wire to the points and ground. With the ignition switch "on" and as you turn over the crank manually (17 mm wrench on the crank bolt below the battery tray), you should see the voltage (light) transition between 12 volts and zero when the notch on the crank pulley approaches the "F" mark on the engine case.
> d) while you are at it, check the mechanical timing (as Bill suggested). Although it is unlikely to change from sitting, it is easy to check. One thing to check is to turn the crank over until the notch on the crank pulley is at the "T" mark on the engine casing. If you remove the oil cap and look at the cam holder, you should see a notch in the camshaft which is facing up. Also, if you remove the spark plugs, both pistons should be at Top Dead Center.
> e) with the spark plugs removed, clean them or replace them. Since you are having problems getting your car to start, I would replace both plugs (keep the old ones, you can use them at a later time). The NGK part number is B8ES. Set the plug gap at 0.028 to 0.032 inches.
> I have a car which used to exhibit the same problem as yours .... it worked fine but if I let it sit for a period of time, it would not start. I was using NippoDenso plugs and they worked fine when new but if the car sat for several months, they had a layer of contamination which prevented them from working properly. I switched brands on the plugs (I normally run NGK and Autolite..... I have a bunch I bought way back during the 20th century) and the problem went away. The problem was not entirely the result of the plugs ..... I also was suspicious of the high voltage wires from the coil to the plugs.
> f) check the fuel system. If the car sat for a period of time, the fuel system may be contaminated or "gunked" up. Especially as a result of the alcohol which is now present in the gasoline. I would not trust the gas sitting in the carburetor. It may not have enough volatility to fire the engine. The best thing to do is to remove the carb, remove the float bowl, clean it out, check out the needle and seat and set the float height (it gives a big payback later in great fuel economy). Since you are a novice and might be nervous about taking the carb apart (they really are pretty simple, though), the real quick way to determine if the problem is in the fuel system is to use a can of starting fluid. Take the air filter off, spray a 1 second shot of starting fluid into the air cleaner box, put the lid back on, and try starting the car. Try starting the car within 5 second of giving it a shot of starting fluid .... don't worry about the cleaner lid being tightened down with the wingnuts. If it fires (even if just for a second), you have a fuel system problem. If it doesn't fire, your problem is elsewhere. CAUTION when using starting fluid .... it is highly flammable. Work on the car outside and have a fire extinguisher and a large bucket of water handy. If the ignition timing is off, the car could backfire and start a fire in the air cleaner box. Depending on how much oily grime is in and around the box, the fire can spread. As long as your are prepared, you will not have a problem. You normally will not have a fire.
> g) If the car tries to start, no need to change the gas in your fuel tank at this point. Remove the fuel line going into the carb and place it into a clear container. Turn the ignition switch to the start position and let the fuel pump dispense fuel into your container. Inspect the condition of the fuel (is the color similar to fresh gas and does it have a strong gasoline smell ..... usually this will not be the case on old gas). If you have an extra fuel pump (even a generic electric fuel pump or a Mighty-Vac pump), you could connect to a gas container holding fresh gas and replenish the fuel in the carb. Reattach the fuel line when you are finished. You can also try heating the carb slightly with a hair dryer ... this raises the volatility. Once the engine does start, the heat of the engine will warm up the gas in the carb and then you are good to go down the road.
> That is my take on your situation. If I were betting, I would wager your problem is related to the fuel system or the spark plugs. Especially since you indicated you were getting some spark.
> good luck,
> Dale
> Replaced the coil lead, and got spark! Still won't start, though. Will try again next weekend. What should I do next?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.32/2460 - Release Date: 10/26/09 08:10:00
1971 AN600 Won't Start
Re: 1971 AN600 Won't Start
Dale- this is GREAT insite! I will start with the plugs and compression- unfortunatly, not until this Saturday.
Re: 1971 AN600 Won't Start
one other thing from me, the small screen inside the carb , it might be blocked with junk and rust , if all else fails take the carb apart and clean the little screen at the needle base
--- On
Mon, 10/26/09, aspidude
wrote:
> From: aspidude
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: 1971 AN600 Won't Start
> To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, October 26, 2009, 2:30 PM
> Dale- this is GREAT insite! I will start with the plugs and compression- unfortunatly, not until this Saturday.
> --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> , "James Hawkins" wrote:
> > Dale, I sure wish I had your knowledge. You reminded me of one point that has happened to me several times. Spark plugs not firing under compression after being flooded. Something in the gas [mtbe?] will foul the plugs and not let them fire thru. I have started V8s by cleaning two plugs when it wouldn't fire a lick. Learned that the hard way.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: goinhm@...
> > To:
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 2:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: 1971 AN600 Won't Start
> > What I gather from you posts is that;
> > 1) it ran fine at some time in the past
> > 2) it sat for a period of time without being used
> > 3) it doesn't run now
> > 4) you are a novice at auto mechanics
> > here are some things for you to consider;
> > 1) The problem is probably something minor and is probably related to the fuel system or electrical system
> > 2) If you have fuel, air, compression, ignition, and proper timing, the engine will start. So far, the only item I suspect is present is the air .... it is everywhere. You need to check out the other items.
> > a) run a compression test. It should be around 160 psi
> > b) you tell me you have spark (ignition) but I suspect you are not testing for spark under compression. An inline spark plug tester would help answer this question. There are other ways to check but I would focus at this time on the other items.
> > c) check the ignition timing. An easy way is to hook up a 12 volts bulb (or voltmeter) between the blue wire to the points and ground. With the ignition switch "on" and as you turn over the crank manually (17 mm wrench on the crank bolt below the battery tray), you should see the voltage (light) transition between 12 volts and zero when the notch on the crank pulley approaches the "F" mark on the engine case.
> > d) while you are at it, check the mechanical timing (as Bill suggested). Although it is unlikely to change from sitting, it is easy to check. One thing to check is to turn the crank over until the notch on the crank pulley is at the "T" mark on the engine casing. If you remove the oil cap and look at the cam holder, you should see a notch in the camshaft which is facing up. Also, if you remove the spark plugs, both pistons should be at Top Dead Center.
> > e) with the spark plugs removed, clean them or replace them. Since you are having problems getting your car to start, I would replace both plugs (keep the old ones, you can use them at a later time). The NGK part number is B8ES. Set the plug gap at 0.028 to 0.032 inches.
> > I have a car which used to exhibit the same problem as yours .... it worked fine but if I let it sit for a period of time, it would not start. I was using NippoDenso plugs and they worked fine when new but if the car sat for several months, they had a layer of contamination which prevented them from working properly. I switched brands on the plugs (I normally run NGK and Autolite.... . I have a bunch I bought way back during the 20th century) and the problem went away. The problem was not entirely the result of the plugs ..... I also was suspicious of the high voltage wires from the coil to the plugs.
> > f) check the fuel system. If the car sat for a period of time, the fuel system may be contaminated or "gunked" up. Especially as a result of the alcohol which is now present in the gasoline. I would not trust the gas sitting in the carburetor. It may not have enough volatility to fire the engine. The best thing to do is to remove the carb, remove the float bowl, clean it out, check out the needle and seat and set the float height (it gives a big payback later in great fuel economy). Since you are a novice and might be nervous about taking the carb apart (they really are pretty simple, though), the real quick way to determine if the problem is in the fuel system is to use a can of starting fluid. Take the air filter off, spray a 1 second shot of starting fluid into the air cleaner box, put the lid back on, and try starting the car. Try starting the car within 5 second of giving it a shot of starting fluid .... don't worry about > the cleaner lid being tightened down with the wingnuts. If it fires (even if just for a second), you have a fuel system problem. If it doesn't fire, your problem is elsewhere. CAUTION when using starting fluid .... it is highly flammable. Work on the car outside and have a fire extinguisher and a large bucket of water handy. If the ignition timing is off, the car could backfire and start a fire in the air cleaner box. Depending on how much oily grime is in and around the box, the fire can spread. As long as your are prepared, you will not have a problem. You normally will not have a fire.
> > g) If the car tries to start, no need to change the gas in your fuel tank at this point. Remove the fuel line going into the carb and place it into a clear container. Turn the ignition switch to the start position and let the fuel pump dispense fuel into your container. Inspect the condition of the fuel (is the color similar to fresh gas and does it have a strong gasoline smell ..... usually this will not be the case on old gas). If you have an extra fuel pump (even a generic electric fuel pump or a Mighty-Vac pump), you could connect to a gas container holding fresh gas and replenish the fuel in the carb. Reattach the fuel line when you are finished. You can also try heating the carb slightly with a hair dryer ... this raises the volatility. Once the engine does start, the heat of the engine will warm up the gas in the carb and then you are good to go down the road.
> > That is my take on your situation. If I were betting, I would wager your problem is related to the fuel system or the spark plugs. Especially since you indicated you were getting some spark.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > Replaced the coil lead, and got spark! Still won't start, though. Will try again next weekend. What should I do next?
> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.32/2460 - Release Date: 10/26/09 08:10:00