45 for the 50th state

[zinc2u]

Hi Lyle,
    Forget the 40 Hp.... go for the 45 Hp Hawaiian design.  It has already been done and proven.   The extra hp cam from a different cam,  different carb,  and different header design.  The carb used was the older style with the "rubber" diaphragm which was rejetted.  The sedan shop manual gives the jet sizes for the different carbs and it may be listed on pg 14-8 (someone else may know whether it was the N6B or N6D1 or ??).  The stock mainland sedan I have worked on were always 6NM.   The exhaust header for the Hawaiian 600 looked like the picture on pg 179 pic #12 of the J & J Performance article in "The Complete Book of Japanese Import Cars"  which you have mentioned in the past.    One catch is going to be that you have a coupe and the header was designed for a sedan which is more box-shaped at the front than a coupe which has the curved-in bodywork at the front (especially the panels that are below the grille work).  The header in pic # 11 might be more suitable for the Z600.
     Someone mentioned a few weeks ago on the group that John Modesti is still alive.  If he could be located,  he might have some drawings he could share with the group.  Hey,  look at this ..... I think this is the same guy.  Looks like he is still in business.  Do you want to contact him?  Probably better if one person contacts him instead of 50 persons with the same questions.
good luck,
Dale

> Miles,
> I would like to see that pipe setup.
> Anybody got pictures or a used set?
> Condition not important.
> The stock exhaust ports are about 1.300"
> inside diameter.
> The stock header pipe flange is 1.125" inside
> diameter.
> Plus they are mismatched a lot.
> So the exhaust hits a wall and
> causes turbulence, not good for flow.
> We don't want to get back pressure
> from mis-alignment.
> If we had 150HP this would not be an issue, but with
> 36HP, poor alignment adds up.
> On my Go-Kart we have about 19HP at 14,000
> rpm and we can go 110mph at Daytona, because everything is aligned > perfect.
> Yes, 4 stroke engines need back pressure.
> It needs to be
> tuned just like the carb.
> The RPM range I will be tuning for a stock Honda
> 600 will be 3,500-6,000, the crank can't take high RPM's!
> The rice rocket
> kids pull the stock exhaust and stick on a huge pipe and no muffler. Sounds > cool, but it destroyed the useful power.
> I want this header to be better
> than stock.
> So my goal is 40HP from my stock engine, 10% gain.
> With a
> tuned exhaust and a re-jetted carb, it should be easy to > get.
> Lyle

[lyletrudell]

Hi Dale, yep that's him!
Wow, he looks a little different after 38 years, don't we all!
I was 12!
Dale, you know more about Honda 600's than me, you should contact him.
I heard he sold all his 600 stuff to Tim years ago and they have stayed in contact.
But he might know something about the header or have drawings or old pictures of Honda's that would be cool!
I couldn't find any Hawaiian parts, so I put my engine back together stock.
A header would help even a stock setup, in hot climates.
But if I can get all the Hawaiian stuff together I could do a swap pretty easy.
Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@... wrote:
> Hi Lyle,
> Forget the 40 Hp.... go for the 45 Hp Hawaiian design. It has already
> been done and proven. The extra hp cam from a different cam, different
> carb, and different header design. The carb used was the older style with
> the "rubber" diaphragm which was rejetted. The sedan shop manual gives
> the jet sizes for the different carbs and it may be listed on pg 14-8
> (someone else may know whether it was the N6B or N6D1 or ??). The stock mainland
> sedan I have worked on were always 6NM. The exhaust header for the
> Hawaiian 600 looked like the picture on pg 179 pic #12 of the J & J Performance
> article in "The Complete Book of Japanese Import Cars" which you have
> mentioned in the past. One catch is going to be that you have a coupe and the
> header was designed for a sedan which is more box-shaped at the front than
> a coupe which has the curved-in bodywork at the front (especially the
> panels that are below the grille work). The header in pic # 11 might be more
> suitable for the Z600.
> Someone mentioned a few weeks ago on the group that John Modesti is
> still alive. If he could be located, he might have some drawings he could
> share with the group. Hey, look at _this_
> (
http://www.modestis.com/about.htm)
..... I think this is the same guy. Looks like he is still in
> business. Do you want to contact him? Probably better if one person contacts him
> instead of 50 persons with the same questions.
> good luck,
> Dale
> Miles, I would like to see that pipe setup.
> Anybody got pictures or a used set? Condition not important.
> The stock exhaust ports are about 1.300" inside diameter.
> The stock header pipe flange is 1.125" inside diameter.
> Plus they are mismatched a lot.
> So the exhaust hits a wall and causes turbulence, not good for flow.
> We don't want to get back pressure from mis-alignment.
> If we had 150HP this would not be an issue, but with 36HP, poor alignment
> adds up.
> On my Go-Kart we have about 19HP at 14,000 rpm and we can go 110mph at
> Daytona, because everything is aligned perfect.
> Yes, 4 stroke engines need back pressure.
> It needs to be tuned just like the carb.
> The RPM range I will be tuning for a stock Honda 600 will be 3,500-6,000,
> the crank can't take high RPM's!
> The rice rocket kids pull the stock exhaust and stick on a huge pipe and
> no muffler. Sounds cool, but it destroyed the useful power.
> I want this header to be better than stock.
> So my goal is 40HP from my stock engine, 10% gain.
> With a tuned exhaust and a re-jetted carb, it should be easy to get.
> Lyle

[friend]

Dale;
I put one in a Coupe before, the battery moves to behind the rear seat.  I used the Y exhaust set up and reground the cam with 1.0 over pistons and ran dual exhaust through cherry bombs.  It ran really good.  Rebuilt all the brakes and used dot5 for a guy in LA.  Some guy in Texas had it and sold it on e-bay a while back.  I think it was painted Black when done.  I know because he sent me the numbers and the engine was not original so I had all the numbers of what went in it.  It was ok on the road and had a fair amount of zip, but it was still a two cylinder 18 second car.
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of > lyletrudell > Sent:
> Wednesday, September 01, 2010 4:48
> PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [2cylinderhondas] Re: 45 for the 50th state
> Hi Dale, yep that's him!
> Wow, he looks a little different after 38
> years, don't we all!
> I was 12!
> Dale, you know more about Honda 600's
> than me, you should contact him.
> I heard he sold all his 600 stuff to Tim
> years ago and they have stayed in contact.
> But he might know something
> about the header or have drawings or old pictures of Honda's that would be > cool!
> I couldn't find any Hawaiian parts, so I put my engine back > together stock.
> A header would help even a stock setup, in hot
> climates.
> But if I can get all the Hawaiian stuff together I could do a > swap pretty easy.
> Lyle
> --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> goinhm@... wrote:
> > Hi Lyle,
> > Forget the 40
> Hp.... go for the 45 Hp Hawaiian design. It has already
> > been done and
> proven. The extra hp cam from a different cam, different > > carb, and > different header design. The carb used was the older style with > > the > "rubber" diaphragm which was rejetted. The sedan shop manual gives
> the jet sizes for the different carbs and it may be listed on pg 14-8
> (someone else may know whether it was the N6B or N6D1 or ??). The stock > mainland > > sedan I have worked on were always 6NM. The exhaust header > for the > > Hawaiian 600 looked like the picture on pg 179 pic #12 of the > J & J Performance > > article in "The Complete Book of Japanese > Import Cars" which you have > > mentioned in the past. One catch is going > to be that you have a coupe and the > > header was designed for a sedan > which is more box-shaped at the front than > > a coupe which has the > curved-in bodywork at the front (especially the > > panels that are below > the grille work). The header in pic # 11 might be more > > suitable for > the Z600.
> > Someone mentioned a few weeks ago on the group
> that John Modesti is
> > still alive. If he could be located, he might
> have some drawings he could
> > share with the group. Hey, look at _this_
> > (
> http://www.modestis.com/about.htm
> )
> ..... I think this is the same guy. Looks like he is still in
> business. Do you want to contact him? Probably better if one person contacts > him > > instead of 50 persons with the same questions.
> good luck,
> > Dale
> > Miles, I would like to see
> that pipe setup.
> > Anybody got pictures or a used set? Condition not
> important.
> > The stock exhaust ports are about 1.300" inside
> diameter.
> > The stock header pipe flange is 1.125" inside
> diameter.
> > Plus they are mismatched a lot.
> > So the exhaust hits
> a wall and causes turbulence, not good for flow.
> > We don't want to get
> back pressure from mis-alignment.
> > If we had 150HP this would not be an
> issue, but with 36HP, poor alignment
> > adds up.
> > On my Go-Kart
> we have about 19HP at 14,000 rpm and we can go 110mph at > > Daytona, > because everything is aligned perfect.
> > Yes, 4 stroke engines
> need back pressure.
> > It needs to be tuned just like the carb.
> The RPM range I will be tuning for a stock Honda 600 will be 3,500-6,000,
> > the crank can't take high RPM's!
> > The rice rocket kids pull
> the stock exhaust and stick on a huge pipe and
> > no muffler. Sounds
> cool, but it destroyed the useful power.
> > I want this header to be
> better than stock.
> > So my goal is 40HP from my stock engine, 10%
> gain.
> > With a tuned exhaust and a re-jetted carb, it should be easy to > get.
> > Lyle

[zinc2u]

Hi Bill,
    Thanks for your info.  I have a few questions about your setup on the coupe.  Here goes;
1.  what diameter pipes did you have on your exhaust at the inlet and the collectors?
2.  what cam angles did you regrind the camshaft to?
3.  did you use the stock coupe carb or the early sedan carb?
4.  did you rejet or make any mods to the carb?
It sounds like your modifications did give a noticeable improvement .....
from a 22 second car to an 18 second car?   20 percent improvement isn't bad.
thanks again for your input,
Dale

> I put one in a Coupe before, the battery moves to behind the > rear seat.  I used the Y exhaust set up and reground the cam with 1.0 > over pistons and ran dual exhaust through cherry bombs.  It ran really > good.  Rebuilt all the brakes and used dot5 for a guy in LA.  Some > guy in Texas had it and sold it on e-bay a while back.  I think it was > painted Black when done.  I know because he sent me the numbers and the > engine was not original so I had all the numbers of what went in it.  It > was ok on the road and had a fair amount of zip, but it was still a two > cylinder 18 second car.
> Bill

[friend]

Dale;
The machine shop I used had an owner that was about our age and worked on the Honda 600 in the past.  He sent a couple of cams out and had them reground to their spec.  I still have one.  needs lash caps.
Exhaust, I ordered the last three left Y exhaust pipes available.
Still have one.  Anyway, it was not supposed to work out that way.  I ordered the numbers and the right pipe never showed.  Second try did nothing to improve the effort.  So, I had a local shop chop up one of the left hand units and made a right hand unit. (I still have a set of used ones that I used as a template)  It's the ends that cause every one problems.  Anyway, I put it all together, chopped off two turns on the front springs, fitted cherry bomb mufflers (duals) I left the carb alone, except, I put a washer under the needle on the center piston to ensure a tight seat. (you might notice an indentation on the needle your carb is using)  Also, opened the back of the air box to allow more air in.  Used a hotter plug, and went to carbon core wires from the coil and tweaked the points plate to make it as close to new as possible.  Polished the ports in the head and had the rockers hard chromed.
The car was lighter, with after market rims, only the drivers seat and not even the hatch or windshield.  I don't know about fast but it was quick.
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of > goinhm@...
> Sent:
> Friday, September 03, 2010 11:03
> AM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re:
> [2cylinderhondas] Re: 45 for the 50th state
> Hi Bill,
>     Thanks for your info.  I have a few questions
> about your setup on the coupe.  Here goes;
> 1.  what diameter pipes did you have on your exhaust at the inlet > and the collectors?
> 2.  what cam angles did you regrind the camshaft to?
> 3.  did you use the stock coupe carb or the early sedan carb?
> 4.  did you rejet or make any mods to the carb?
> It sounds like your modifications did give a noticeable improvement .....
> from a 22 second car to an 18 second car?   20 percent improvement > isn't bad.
> thanks again for your input,
> Dale
> > I put one in a Coupe before, the battery moves to
> > behind the rear seat.  I used the Y exhaust set up and reground the cam > > with 1.0 over pistons and ran dual exhaust through cherry bombs.  It > > ran really good.  Rebuilt all the brakes and used dot5 for a guy in > > LA.  Some guy in Texas had it and sold it on e-bay a while back.
> > I think it was painted Black when done.  I know because he sent me the > > numbers and the engine was not original so I had all the numbers of what > > went in it.  It was ok on the road and had a fair amount of zip, but it > > was still a two cylinder 18 second car.
> > Bill