WHAT IS EVERYONES FEELING ON SYNTHETIC OIL IN THESE LITTLE ENGINES?LETS
NOT FORGET THE TRANNY SHARES THE SAME. BEST PLACE FOR OIL TEMP.SENDER?
REBUILT TOP OF ENGINE WITH OVERSIZE PISTONS BUT OUTER PART HITS HEAD
ANYONE ELSEHEAR OF THIS?
engine oil
Re: engine oil
The more modern the oil the better. The oil specified for these engines was of the available choice at the time, grades like 10w40 and 5w50 didn’t exist back then.
I’m not familiar with the engine, how tight are the tolerances and how well does it keep oil pressure at idle? If the answer to both is very good, then I’d go with a 10w40. Don’t worry about if it’s fully, part or not synth, as you would be well recommended not to push extended service intervals which is where the synth comes into it. If changing oil regularly mineral oil won’t have had chance to degrade but you will be getting rid of all the contaminants much more often. So go with the best grade you can get cheaply in something like a 10w40 or 5w40/5w50.
If the engine struggles for oil pressure at idle and has poor machining, you will need a thicker oil to keep oil pressure up – so try a 15w40 or if it comes to it the dreaded 20w50 (try to get a good grade, most of the latter is sludge). The thinner the oil the better as it gets round faster and protects from start up sooner and has less frictional drag, but if the engine’s clearances are very poor thin oil will leak out from the journals etc too much and you’ll lose oil pressure at idle, hence my question above.
I wouldn’t worry about an oil temp sender as much as fitting a big oil cooler behind the gril. That would be a great thing to do on an air cooled engine and coupled with a modern thin oil should have your engine way better protected and running better too as lower drag and lower heat build up. But oil temp sensors normally sit in the sump, anywhere where the oil draining back down flows over them and pools.
Greg.
I’m not familiar with the engine, how tight are the tolerances and how well does it keep oil pressure at idle? If the answer to both is very good, then I’d go with a 10w40. Don’t worry about if it’s fully, part or not synth, as you would be well recommended not to push extended service intervals which is where the synth comes into it. If changing oil regularly mineral oil won’t have had chance to degrade but you will be getting rid of all the contaminants much more often. So go with the best grade you can get cheaply in something like a 10w40 or 5w40/5w50.
If the engine struggles for oil pressure at idle and has poor machining, you will need a thicker oil to keep oil pressure up – so try a 15w40 or if it comes to it the dreaded 20w50 (try to get a good grade, most of the latter is sludge). The thinner the oil the better as it gets round faster and protects from start up sooner and has less frictional drag, but if the engine’s clearances are very poor thin oil will leak out from the journals etc too much and you’ll lose oil pressure at idle, hence my question above.
I wouldn’t worry about an oil temp sender as much as fitting a big oil cooler behind the gril. That would be a great thing to do on an air cooled engine and coupled with a modern thin oil should have your engine way better protected and running better too as lower drag and lower heat build up. But oil temp sensors normally sit in the sump, anywhere where the oil draining back down flows over them and pools.
Greg.
-
blake neilson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:32 am
Re: engine oil
While I fully understand the 600 does not use a motorcycle engine adapted for use in the car, it nevertheless shares a lot of the design and technical characteristics of it's contemporary Honda motorcycle engines. In fact, other than the dry clutch and the use of synchronizers (later designs) in the trans it might as well be a motorcycle engine.
I would therefore recommend you use an oil designed for motorcycles. Those oils are formulated with the needs of the transmission in mind. That is probably the main issue in this question. Those oils also still use the additives which protect the cam and lobes which have been eliminated in current car oils since all car engines I know of use roller tappets which do not need those additives like flat tappets do.
GNB
--- On Sat, 4/26/08, Greg wrote:
I would therefore recommend you use an oil designed for motorcycles. Those oils are formulated with the needs of the transmission in mind. That is probably the main issue in this question. Those oils also still use the additives which protect the cam and lobes which have been eliminated in current car oils since all car engines I know of use roller tappets which do not need those additives like flat tappets do.
GNB
--- On Sat, 4/26/08, Greg wrote:
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.> From: Greg
> Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, April 26, 2008, 5:33 AM
> The more modern the oil the better. The oil specified for > these engines was of the available choice at the time, grades like 10w40 and > 5w50 didnt exist back then.
> Im not familiar with the engine, how tight are the
> tolerances and how well does it keep oil pressure at idle? If the answer > to both is very good, then Id go with a 10w40. Dont worry > about if its fully, part or not synth, as you would be well recommended not > to push extended service intervals which is where the synth comes into > it. If changing oil regularly mineral oil wont have had chance to > degrade but you will be getting rid of all the contaminants much more > often. So go with the best grade you can get cheaply in something like a > 10w40 or 5w40/5w50.
> If the engine struggles for oil pressure at idle and has poor > machining, you will need a thicker oil to keep oil pressure up so try a > 15w40 or if it comes to it the dreaded 20w50 (try to get a good grade, most of > the latter is sludge). The thinner the oil the better as it gets round > faster and protects from start up sooner and has less frictional drag, but if > the engines clearances are very poor thin oil will leak out from the > journals etc too much and youll lose oil pressure at idle, hence my > question above.
> I wouldnt worry about an oil temp sender as much as
> fitting a big oil cooler behind the gril. That would be a great thing to > do on an air cooled engine and coupled with a modern thin oil should have your > engine way better protected and running better too as lower drag and lower heat > build up. But oil temp sensors normally sit in the sump, anywhere where > the oil draining back down flows over them and pools.
> Greg.
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> On Behalf Of
> whitessports39
> Sent:
> 26 April 2008 13:27
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> WHAT IS EVERYONES FEELING ON SYNTHETIC OIL IN
> THESE LITTLE ENGINES?LETS
> NOT FORGET THE TRANNY SHARES THE SAME. BEST PLACE FOR OIL TEMP.SENDER?
> REBUILT TOP OF ENGINE WITH OVERSIZE PISTONS BUT OUTER PART HITS HEAD
> ANYONE ELSEHEAR OF THIS?
Re: engine oil
GNB,
I am not as familiar with the engine as you are so Im sure you are correct re its motorcycle similarity.� As for motorcycle oil being designed to lubricate gears, I cant quite agree.� I know of one mfr that specified 15w40 engine oil for its gearbox, albeit with service changes I think.� Secondly, do not forget the Austin Mini, the 1950 car with a gearbox built under the engine.� No motorcycle technology there, but it shared the 20w50 engine oil quite happily and had no undue gearbox issues.� Also the Mercedes Smart 800cc diesel modern CDi car engine uses the same setup.
When it comes to gearboxes, two things count.� Anti-foaming properties (churning up in cogs can make the oil foam up, which can be bad as it can reduce the level in the lower part of the gearbox) and the actual wear/shear protection.� If it has a picture of a motorcycle on the tin has no bearing.� For example, some of Redlines fully synth ATF fluid has a high shear resistance than EP90 grade thick back axle oil and would protect an axle better!� You cant just go on what the oil is supposed to be for, its all in the API rating and the viscosity grade as well as in the extended data sheet if you want to dig that far re foaming, shearing and other properties.� There is an issue with heavily viscosity modified mineral oil which Ill mention later.
As for tappets all being roller these days what particular additive did you think that makes non-roller tappets stay healthy?� The grade and quality of oil do this, the additive packages are to prevent polymerisation, keep acid levels down, stop coking etc not for the actual wear protection, that is done by the long chains in the oil.� For example, untreated fresh vegetable oil from the supermarket will do a better or as good job than top spec engine oil proven.� BUT, because its not refined and additiveised it will degrade quickly.
Further more most modern engines are not roller tappet.� Roller tappet are much more common on old style ohv/v8 engines.� I currently have 4 modern engines in, including a rebuild on a common rail 16v 2.2 diesel and a 20v and 12v petrol fuel injection motors.� They are not roller tappets, its pretty hard to put a roller on a bucket and most cam over valve designs have a cam over a bank of hydraulic buckets.� Sometimes solid buckets and shims on the diesels, or in the case of two of these engines back to manual adjustment via plain rockers!� You cant buy a can of oil that has a magic suitable for tappets on the front.� Grades such as API SJ/CF4 describe its wear properties, reserve alkaline content, anti foaming and detergent and dispersal agents.
Did you know that diesel oil is regularly manufactured as the same batch as petrol oil and packaged and sold as two different products?� When looking at the spec on the back, you may see that the second two letters (such as CF4 etc) are the same on both indicating the diesel oil specification is the same!
The two things that count are the SAE grade (thats the viscosity of the oil when cold and when hot, eg 10w40 is a 10 grade oil when cold and a 40 grade oil when hot handy huh?) and the API service classification.� This gives a service class so you know the type of protection and additives you are getting, broken into S for spark ignition engines and C for diesel compression ignition engines, so you can see how the oil fairs up for either.� The only thing they dont cover is wet clutch performance, which is where a true motorcycle oil may differ but on the 600 you have a dry clutch.� Current API service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard&.�
However, you have made me have a re-think.� The cogs in the box can cause degrading of VI modifiers, used to make mineral oil multi grade.� Synthetic oil uses less of them, so while its not an issue for very frequent oil changes or in car engines, it may be better to go fully synthetic oil route. This isnt to do with the protection of gears or cams as I outlined above, its due to the big chemicals in the Viscosity Mofifiers getting chewed up and making the oils top number go down, eg a 10w40 becoming a 10w20 over time.� Synthetics use little VIs so dont have the issue and as a bonus they conduct heat better.� On balance my last email should be considered for car engines and for the 600/combined engine/box units with dry clutch if you fit a big oil cooler and run fully synth oil that should be the best bet.� Motorcycle specific oil probably wont help (unless you have a wet clutch) and may be a worse level of frictional protection as they have to consider the wet clutch and allow it to have friction.
Greg.
I am not as familiar with the engine as you are so Im sure you are correct re its motorcycle similarity.� As for motorcycle oil being designed to lubricate gears, I cant quite agree.� I know of one mfr that specified 15w40 engine oil for its gearbox, albeit with service changes I think.� Secondly, do not forget the Austin Mini, the 1950 car with a gearbox built under the engine.� No motorcycle technology there, but it shared the 20w50 engine oil quite happily and had no undue gearbox issues.� Also the Mercedes Smart 800cc diesel modern CDi car engine uses the same setup.
When it comes to gearboxes, two things count.� Anti-foaming properties (churning up in cogs can make the oil foam up, which can be bad as it can reduce the level in the lower part of the gearbox) and the actual wear/shear protection.� If it has a picture of a motorcycle on the tin has no bearing.� For example, some of Redlines fully synth ATF fluid has a high shear resistance than EP90 grade thick back axle oil and would protect an axle better!� You cant just go on what the oil is supposed to be for, its all in the API rating and the viscosity grade as well as in the extended data sheet if you want to dig that far re foaming, shearing and other properties.� There is an issue with heavily viscosity modified mineral oil which Ill mention later.
As for tappets all being roller these days what particular additive did you think that makes non-roller tappets stay healthy?� The grade and quality of oil do this, the additive packages are to prevent polymerisation, keep acid levels down, stop coking etc not for the actual wear protection, that is done by the long chains in the oil.� For example, untreated fresh vegetable oil from the supermarket will do a better or as good job than top spec engine oil proven.� BUT, because its not refined and additiveised it will degrade quickly.
Further more most modern engines are not roller tappet.� Roller tappet are much more common on old style ohv/v8 engines.� I currently have 4 modern engines in, including a rebuild on a common rail 16v 2.2 diesel and a 20v and 12v petrol fuel injection motors.� They are not roller tappets, its pretty hard to put a roller on a bucket and most cam over valve designs have a cam over a bank of hydraulic buckets.� Sometimes solid buckets and shims on the diesels, or in the case of two of these engines back to manual adjustment via plain rockers!� You cant buy a can of oil that has a magic suitable for tappets on the front.� Grades such as API SJ/CF4 describe its wear properties, reserve alkaline content, anti foaming and detergent and dispersal agents.
Did you know that diesel oil is regularly manufactured as the same batch as petrol oil and packaged and sold as two different products?� When looking at the spec on the back, you may see that the second two letters (such as CF4 etc) are the same on both indicating the diesel oil specification is the same!
The two things that count are the SAE grade (thats the viscosity of the oil when cold and when hot, eg 10w40 is a 10 grade oil when cold and a 40 grade oil when hot handy huh?) and the API service classification.� This gives a service class so you know the type of protection and additives you are getting, broken into S for spark ignition engines and C for diesel compression ignition engines, so you can see how the oil fairs up for either.� The only thing they dont cover is wet clutch performance, which is where a true motorcycle oil may differ but on the 600 you have a dry clutch.� Current API service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use the SF/SG standard&.�
However, you have made me have a re-think.� The cogs in the box can cause degrading of VI modifiers, used to make mineral oil multi grade.� Synthetic oil uses less of them, so while its not an issue for very frequent oil changes or in car engines, it may be better to go fully synthetic oil route. This isnt to do with the protection of gears or cams as I outlined above, its due to the big chemicals in the Viscosity Mofifiers getting chewed up and making the oils top number go down, eg a 10w40 becoming a 10w20 over time.� Synthetics use little VIs so dont have the issue and as a bonus they conduct heat better.� On balance my last email should be considered for car engines and for the 600/combined engine/box units with dry clutch if you fit a big oil cooler and run fully synth oil that should be the best bet.� Motorcycle specific oil probably wont help (unless you have a wet clutch) and may be a worse level of frictional protection as they have to consider the wet clutch and allow it to have friction.
Greg.
-
blake neilson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:32 am
Re: engine oil
Manufacturers have numerous options for how they chose to finish and harden internal engine parts such and camshafts and transmission gears. Their choices are determined by cost and anticipated use and maintenance practices.
I have not researched the tappet choice for all vehicle manufacturers selling in the U.S. but I feel safe in saying that roller followers for friction reduction are virtually universal. That then allows the use of oils which specify reduced levels of ZDDP (zinc dithiophosphate). That's also beneficial for extending the life of exhaust catalysts.
There is a downside to that change in the specs of modern oils and it is being experienced by those who collect and rebuild older collectible cars which use flat tappet designs. Some have resorted to using either diesel oils or motorcycle oils which are less likely to specify low levels of ZDDP. My advice for the 600 owner was based on what I stated above and the design similarities between the Honda 600 engine and pure motorcycle engines. I have rebuilt both.
Pasted below is information (sorry for the length) from an email I received from a good friend who rebuilds 1950's and 60's era Mercedes engines. He has sent me other e-mails on the subject but the essential point is the same. That excerpt follows:
This was posted on the some British Car web forums and based on the feedback
it is not widely known apparently -----
OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!
By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP)
in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high
pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in
supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates
reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and
introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this
could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to
have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing
that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many
engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break
in procedures.
This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then
the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API (American Petroleum
Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.
Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance
(Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during
break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an unreasonably
short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat
tappet engines.
Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They continued
to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to
test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones
that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants
possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products,
but it seems to be true for our cars.
To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and
street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW
oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was
making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The
reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early
destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at
least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new
engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have
been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain
skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement:
Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at
auto stores and gas stations.
This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin
#TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their
engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.
Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and
component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British
Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this
problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn't
rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written
an article for the British Bike community that verify all the "bad news" we
have been finding.
Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They have
both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the
bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically for
break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits
of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper
break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing
some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required
to remove from the off the-shelf oil".
Next question: Now what do we do?
From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for diesel use",
Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality
petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc
dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.
From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): "use our additive" for at least the
first 500 miles.
From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil,
it's only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem
seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).
From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we
need!
From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and
Industrial oils: "After over a week of contacts we have verified that the
major oil companies are aware of the problem". "The representatives of the
oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no
knowledge of formulation" . The only major oil companies they were aware of
for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an "Off
Road 20W-50" and Redline.
From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It
may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are
Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.
Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After
much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the
Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum,
is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a
dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have
been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost
difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation
is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to
18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with
lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals
in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is
the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the
Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they
produce.
Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us
money and time. Be aware that "New and Improved", or even products we have
been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn't the same
stuff we were getting even a year ago.
For the cars that use "engine oil" in their gearboxes this may even pose a
problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in
gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes
with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the
criteria are from General Motors and Redline.
If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat
tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are
changing and we MUST meet the challenge.
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPos
wrote:
> From: Greg
> Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, April 27, 2008, 1:58 AM
> GNB,
> I am not as familiar with the engine as you are so Im sure you > are correct re its motorcycle similarity. As for motorcycle oil being > designed to lubricate gears, I cant quite agree. I know of one mfr that > specified 15w40 engine oil for its gearbox, albeit with service changes I > think. Secondly, do not forget the Austin Mini, the 1950 car with a gearbox > built under the engine. No motorcycle technology there, but it shared the 20w50 > engine oil quite happily and had no undue gearbox issues. Also the Mercedes > Smart 800cc diesel modern CDi car engine uses the same setup.
> When it comes to gearboxes, two things count. Anti-foaming > properties (churning up in cogs can make the oil foam up, which can be bad as > it can reduce the level in the lower part of the gearbox) and the actual > wear/shear protection. If it has a picture of a motorcycle on the tin has no > bearing. For example, some of Redlines fully synth ATF fluid has a high shear > resistance than EP90 grade thick back axle oil and would protect an axle > better! You cant just go on what the oil is supposed to be for, its all in > the API rating and the viscosity grade as well as in the extended data sheet if > you want to dig that far re foaming, shearing and other properties. There is > an issue with heavily viscosity modified mineral oil which Ill mention later.
> As for tappets all being roller these days what particular > additive did you think that makes non-roller tappets stay healthy? The grade > and quality of oil do this, the additive packages are to prevent > polymerisation, keep acid levels down, stop coking etc not for the actual > wear protection, that is done by the long chains in the oil. For example, > untreated fresh vegetable oil from the supermarket will do a better or as good job > than top spec engine oil proven. BUT, because its not refined and > additiveised it will degrade quickly.
> Further more most modern engines are not roller tappet. Roller > tappet are much more common on old style ohv/v8 engines. I currently have 4 > modern engines in, including a rebuild on a common rail 16v 2.2 diesel and a > 20v and 12v petrol fuel injection motors. They are not roller tappets, its > pretty hard to put a roller on a bucket and most cam over valve designs have a > cam over a bank of hydraulic buckets. Sometimes solid buckets and shims on the > diesels, or in the case of two of these engines back to manual adjustment via > plain rockers! You cant buy a can of oil that has a magic suitable for > tappets on the front. Grades such as API SJ/CF4 describe its wear properties, > reserve alkaline content, anti foaming and detergent and dispersal agents.
> Did you know that diesel oil is regularly manufactured as the > same batch as petrol oil and packaged and sold as two different products?
> When looking at the spec on the back, you may see that the second two letters > (such as CF4 etc) are the same on both indicating the diesel oil > specification is the same!
> The two things that count are the SAE grade (thats the viscosity > of the oil when cold and when hot, eg 10w40 is a 10 grade oil when cold and a > 40 grade oil when hot handy huh?) and the API service classification. This > gives a service class so you know the type of protection and additives you are > getting, broken into S for spark ignition engines and C for diesel compression > ignition engines, so you can see how the oil fairs up for either. The only > thing they dont cover is wet clutch performance, which is where a true > motorcycle oil may differ but on the 600 you have a dry clutch. Current API > service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous > service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use > the SF/SG standard&.
> However, you have made me have a re-think. The cogs in the box > can cause degrading of VI modifiers, used to make mineral oil multi grade.
> Synthetic oil uses less of them, so while its not an issue for very frequent > oil changes or in car engines, it may be better to go fully synthetic oil > route. This isnt to do with the protection of gears or cams as I outlined > above, its due to the big chemicals in the Viscosity Mofifiers getting chewed > up and making the oils top number go down, eg a 10w40 becoming a 10w20 over > time. Synthetics use little VIs so dont have the issue and as a bonus they > conduct heat better. On balance my last email should be considered for car > engines and for the 600/combined engine/box units with dry clutch if you fit a > big oil cooler and run fully synth oil that should be the best bet. Motorcycle > specific oil probably wont help (unless you have a wet clutch) and may be a > worse level of frictional protection as they have to consider the wet clutch > and allow it to have friction.
> Greg.
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> On Behalf Of
> blake neilson
> Sent:
> 26 April 2008 16:18
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> While I fully understand the 600 does not use a motorcycle > engine adapted for use in the car, it nevertheless shares a lot of the design > and technical characteristics of it's contemporary Honda motorcycle > engines. In fact, other than the dry clutch and the use of > synchronizers (later designs) in the trans it might as well be a motorcycle > engine.
> I would therefore recommend you use an oil designed for > motorcycles. Those oils are formulated with the needs of the > transmission in mind. That is probably the main issue in this > question. Those oils also still use the additives which protect the cam > and lobes which have been eliminated in current car oils since all car > engines I know of use roller tappets which do not need those additives like > flat tappets do.
> GNB
> --- On
> Sat, 4/26/08, Greg
>
> wrote:
> From: Greg
>
> Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Saturday, April 26, 2008, 5:33 AM
> The more modern the oil the
> better. The oil specified for these engines was of the available choice > at the time, grades like 10w40 and 5w50 didnt exist back then.
> Im not familiar with the engine, how
> tight are the tolerances and how well does it keep oil pressure at > idle? If the answer to both is very good, then Id go with a > 10w40. Dont worry about if its fully, part or not synth, as you would > be well recommended not to push extended service intervals which is where the > synth comes into it. If changing oil regularly mineral oil wont have > had chance to degrade but you will be getting rid of all the contaminants > much more often. So go with the best grade you can get cheaply in > something like a 10w40 or 5w40/5w50.
> If the engine struggles for oil
> pressure at idle and has poor machining, you will need a thicker oil to keep > oil pressure up so try a 15w40 or if it comes to it the dreaded 20w50 (try > to get a good grade, most of the latter is sludge). The thinner the oil > the better as it gets round faster and protects from start up sooner and has > less frictional drag, but if the engines clearances are very poor thin oil > will leak out from the journals etc too much and youll lose oil pressure at > idle, hence my question above.
> I wouldnt worry about an oil temp
> sender as much as fitting a big oil cooler behind the gril. That would > be a great thing to do on an air cooled engine and coupled with a modern thin > oil should have your engine way better protected and running better too as > lower drag and lower heat build up. But oil temp sensors normally sit > in the sump, anywhere where the oil draining back down flows over them and > pools.
> Greg.
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> On Behalf Of
> whitessports39
> Sent:
> 26 April 2008 13:27
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> WHAT IS EVERYONES FEELING ON SYNTHETIC OIL IN THESE LITTLE ENGINES?LETS
> NOT FORGET THE TRANNY SHARES THE SAME. BEST PLACE FOR OIL TEMP.SENDER?
> REBUILT TOP OF ENGINE WITH OVERSIZE PISTONS BUT OUTER PART HITS HEAD
> ANYONE ELSEHEAR OF THIS?
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
> Mobile.
> Try
> it now.
[/quote]
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
I have not researched the tappet choice for all vehicle manufacturers selling in the U.S. but I feel safe in saying that roller followers for friction reduction are virtually universal. That then allows the use of oils which specify reduced levels of ZDDP (zinc dithiophosphate). That's also beneficial for extending the life of exhaust catalysts.
There is a downside to that change in the specs of modern oils and it is being experienced by those who collect and rebuild older collectible cars which use flat tappet designs. Some have resorted to using either diesel oils or motorcycle oils which are less likely to specify low levels of ZDDP. My advice for the 600 owner was based on what I stated above and the design similarities between the Honda 600 engine and pure motorcycle engines. I have rebuilt both.
Pasted below is information (sorry for the length) from an email I received from a good friend who rebuilds 1950's and 60's era Mercedes engines. He has sent me other e-mails on the subject but the essential point is the same. That excerpt follows:
This was posted on the some British Car web forums and based on the feedback
it is not widely known apparently -----
OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!
By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP)
in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high
pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in
supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates
reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and
introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.
A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this
could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to
have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing
that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many
engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break
in procedures.
This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then
the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API (American Petroleum
Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.
Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance
(Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during
break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an unreasonably
short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat
tappet engines.
Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They continued
to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to
test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones
that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants
possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products,
but it seems to be true for our cars.
To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and
street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW
oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was
making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The
reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early
destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at
least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new
engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have
been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain
skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement:
Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at
auto stores and gas stations.
This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin
#TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their
engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.
Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and
component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British
Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this
problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn't
rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written
an article for the British Bike community that verify all the "bad news" we
have been finding.
Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They have
both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the
bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically for
break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits
of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper
break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing
some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required
to remove from the off the-shelf oil".
Next question: Now what do we do?
From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for diesel use",
Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality
petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc
dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.
From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): "use our additive" for at least the
first 500 miles.
From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil,
it's only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem
seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).
From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we
need!
From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and
Industrial oils: "After over a week of contacts we have verified that the
major oil companies are aware of the problem". "The representatives of the
oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no
knowledge of formulation" . The only major oil companies they were aware of
for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an "Off
Road 20W-50" and Redline.
From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It
may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are
Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.
Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After
much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the
Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum,
is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a
dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have
been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost
difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation
is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to
18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with
lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals
in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is
the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the
Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they
produce.
Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us
money and time. Be aware that "New and Improved", or even products we have
been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn't the same
stuff we were getting even a year ago.
For the cars that use "engine oil" in their gearboxes this may even pose a
problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in
gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes
with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the
criteria are from General Motors and Redline.
If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat
tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are
changing and we MUST meet the challenge.
Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPos
wrote:
> From: Greg
> Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, April 27, 2008, 1:58 AM
> GNB,
> I am not as familiar with the engine as you are so Im sure you > are correct re its motorcycle similarity. As for motorcycle oil being > designed to lubricate gears, I cant quite agree. I know of one mfr that > specified 15w40 engine oil for its gearbox, albeit with service changes I > think. Secondly, do not forget the Austin Mini, the 1950 car with a gearbox > built under the engine. No motorcycle technology there, but it shared the 20w50 > engine oil quite happily and had no undue gearbox issues. Also the Mercedes > Smart 800cc diesel modern CDi car engine uses the same setup.
> When it comes to gearboxes, two things count. Anti-foaming > properties (churning up in cogs can make the oil foam up, which can be bad as > it can reduce the level in the lower part of the gearbox) and the actual > wear/shear protection. If it has a picture of a motorcycle on the tin has no > bearing. For example, some of Redlines fully synth ATF fluid has a high shear > resistance than EP90 grade thick back axle oil and would protect an axle > better! You cant just go on what the oil is supposed to be for, its all in > the API rating and the viscosity grade as well as in the extended data sheet if > you want to dig that far re foaming, shearing and other properties. There is > an issue with heavily viscosity modified mineral oil which Ill mention later.
> As for tappets all being roller these days what particular > additive did you think that makes non-roller tappets stay healthy? The grade > and quality of oil do this, the additive packages are to prevent > polymerisation, keep acid levels down, stop coking etc not for the actual > wear protection, that is done by the long chains in the oil. For example, > untreated fresh vegetable oil from the supermarket will do a better or as good job > than top spec engine oil proven. BUT, because its not refined and > additiveised it will degrade quickly.
> Further more most modern engines are not roller tappet. Roller > tappet are much more common on old style ohv/v8 engines. I currently have 4 > modern engines in, including a rebuild on a common rail 16v 2.2 diesel and a > 20v and 12v petrol fuel injection motors. They are not roller tappets, its > pretty hard to put a roller on a bucket and most cam over valve designs have a > cam over a bank of hydraulic buckets. Sometimes solid buckets and shims on the > diesels, or in the case of two of these engines back to manual adjustment via > plain rockers! You cant buy a can of oil that has a magic suitable for > tappets on the front. Grades such as API SJ/CF4 describe its wear properties, > reserve alkaline content, anti foaming and detergent and dispersal agents.
> Did you know that diesel oil is regularly manufactured as the > same batch as petrol oil and packaged and sold as two different products?
> When looking at the spec on the back, you may see that the second two letters > (such as CF4 etc) are the same on both indicating the diesel oil > specification is the same!
> The two things that count are the SAE grade (thats the viscosity > of the oil when cold and when hot, eg 10w40 is a 10 grade oil when cold and a > 40 grade oil when hot handy huh?) and the API service classification. This > gives a service class so you know the type of protection and additives you are > getting, broken into S for spark ignition engines and C for diesel compression > ignition engines, so you can see how the oil fairs up for either. The only > thing they dont cover is wet clutch performance, which is where a true > motorcycle oil may differ but on the 600 you have a dry clutch. Current API > service categories include SM, SL and SJ for gasoline engines. All previous > service designations are obsolete, although motorcycle oils commonly still use > the SF/SG standard&.
> However, you have made me have a re-think. The cogs in the box > can cause degrading of VI modifiers, used to make mineral oil multi grade.
> Synthetic oil uses less of them, so while its not an issue for very frequent > oil changes or in car engines, it may be better to go fully synthetic oil > route. This isnt to do with the protection of gears or cams as I outlined > above, its due to the big chemicals in the Viscosity Mofifiers getting chewed > up and making the oils top number go down, eg a 10w40 becoming a 10w20 over > time. Synthetics use little VIs so dont have the issue and as a bonus they > conduct heat better. On balance my last email should be considered for car > engines and for the 600/combined engine/box units with dry clutch if you fit a > big oil cooler and run fully synth oil that should be the best bet. Motorcycle > specific oil probably wont help (unless you have a wet clutch) and may be a > worse level of frictional protection as they have to consider the wet clutch > and allow it to have friction.
> Greg.
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> On Behalf Of
> blake neilson
> Sent:
> 26 April 2008 16:18
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> While I fully understand the 600 does not use a motorcycle > engine adapted for use in the car, it nevertheless shares a lot of the design > and technical characteristics of it's contemporary Honda motorcycle > engines. In fact, other than the dry clutch and the use of > synchronizers (later designs) in the trans it might as well be a motorcycle > engine.
> I would therefore recommend you use an oil designed for > motorcycles. Those oils are formulated with the needs of the > transmission in mind. That is probably the main issue in this > question. Those oils also still use the additives which protect the cam > and lobes which have been eliminated in current car oils since all car > engines I know of use roller tappets which do not need those additives like > flat tappets do.
> GNB
> --- On
> Sat, 4/26/08, Greg
>
> wrote:
> From: Greg
>
> Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Saturday, April 26, 2008, 5:33 AM
> The more modern the oil the
> better. The oil specified for these engines was of the available choice > at the time, grades like 10w40 and 5w50 didnt exist back then.
> Im not familiar with the engine, how
> tight are the tolerances and how well does it keep oil pressure at > idle? If the answer to both is very good, then Id go with a > 10w40. Dont worry about if its fully, part or not synth, as you would > be well recommended not to push extended service intervals which is where the > synth comes into it. If changing oil regularly mineral oil wont have > had chance to degrade but you will be getting rid of all the contaminants > much more often. So go with the best grade you can get cheaply in > something like a 10w40 or 5w40/5w50.
> If the engine struggles for oil
> pressure at idle and has poor machining, you will need a thicker oil to keep > oil pressure up so try a 15w40 or if it comes to it the dreaded 20w50 (try > to get a good grade, most of the latter is sludge). The thinner the oil > the better as it gets round faster and protects from start up sooner and has > less frictional drag, but if the engines clearances are very poor thin oil > will leak out from the journals etc too much and youll lose oil pressure at > idle, hence my question above.
> I wouldnt worry about an oil temp
> sender as much as fitting a big oil cooler behind the gril. That would > be a great thing to do on an air cooled engine and coupled with a modern thin > oil should have your engine way better protected and running better too as > lower drag and lower heat build up. But oil temp sensors normally sit > in the sump, anywhere where the oil draining back down flows over them and > pools.
> Greg.
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> On Behalf Of
> whitessports39
> Sent:
> 26 April 2008 13:27
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> WHAT IS EVERYONES FEELING ON SYNTHETIC OIL IN THESE LITTLE ENGINES?LETS
> NOT FORGET THE TRANNY SHARES THE SAME. BEST PLACE FOR OIL TEMP.SENDER?
> REBUILT TOP OF ENGINE WITH OVERSIZE PISTONS BUT OUTER PART HITS HEAD
> ANYONE ELSEHEAR OF THIS?
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
> Mobile.
> Try
> it now.
[/quote]
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Re: engine oil
Greg;
Oil pressure is normally about 8 to 10 psi at 3K rpm after it is warmed up (greater speed does not seem to increase psi ). Cold it will climb to 35 psi.
At idle 1100 rpm it will read Zero. It's is because the bearings are all roller and the oil pump pushes all the oil (flow) through the engine every minute at idle.
Bill
Oil pressure is normally about 8 to 10 psi at 3K rpm after it is warmed up (greater speed does not seem to increase psi ). Cold it will climb to 35 psi.
At idle 1100 rpm it will read Zero. It's is because the bearings are all roller and the oil pump pushes all the oil (flow) through the engine every minute at idle.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Greg
> Sent:
> Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:34 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> RE: [anzhonda600owners]
> engine oil
> The more
> modern the oil the better. The oil specified for these engines was of > the available choice at the time, grades like 10w40 and 5w50 didn�t exist back > then.
> I�m not
> familiar with the engine, how tight are the tolerances and how well does it > keep oil pressure at idle? If the answer to both is very good, then I�d > go with a 10w40. Don�t worry about if it�s fully, part or not synth, as > you would be well recommended not to push extended service intervals which is > where the synth comes into it. If changing oil regularly mineral oil > won�t have had chance to degrade but you will be getting rid of all the > contaminants much more often. So go with the best grade you can get > cheaply in something like a 10w40 or 5w40/5w50.
> If the engine
> struggles for oil pressure at idle and has poor machining, you will need a > thicker oil to keep oil pressure up � so try a 15w40 or if it comes to it the > dreaded 20w50 (try to get a good grade, most of the latter is sludge).
> The thinner the oil the better as it gets round faster and protects from start > up sooner and has less frictional drag, but if the engine�s clearances are > very poor thin oil will leak out from the journals etc too much and you�ll > lose oil pressure at idle, hence my question above.
> I wouldn�t
> worry about an oil temp sender as much as fitting a big oil cooler behind the > gril. That would be a great thing to do on an air cooled engine and > coupled with a modern thin oil should have your engine way better protected > and running better too as lower drag and lower heat build up. But oil > temp sensors normally sit in the sump, anywhere where the oil draining back > down flows over them and pools.
> Greg.
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> On Behalf Of
> whitessports39
> Sent:
> 26 April 2008 13:27
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> WHAT IS EVERYONES FEELING ON SYNTHETIC OIL IN THESE LITTLE ENGINES?LETS
> NOT FORGET THE TRANNY SHARES THE SAME. BEST PLACE FOR OIL
> TEMP.SENDER?
> REBUILT TOP OF ENGINE WITH OVERSIZE PISTONS BUT OUTER PART > HITS HEAD > ANYONE ELSEHEAR OF THIS?
Re: engine oil
Hi Bill,
That makes sense, didn’t know it was roller mains. Given how it climbs when cold should be very suitable for a modern 10w40 or even 5w40/5w50 type.
Greg.
That makes sense, didn’t know it was roller mains. Given how it climbs when cold should be very suitable for a modern 10w40 or even 5w40/5w50 type.
Greg.
Re: engine oil
Interesting, Ill look into it more but my entire fleet has been on modern oil post ZDDP removal, all with no roller tappets (can you show any figures for your comments its common?) including many engines post 250,000.� I havent seen an engine failure, at all, since the days of 20w50 and carbs. �We have personally put over 100k on some of them, camshafts and friction buckets still unmarked let alone no wear.� So Im a little sceptical unless Im missing something here&..
Particularly as reference is made to diesel rated oil.� All oil sold with ratings is diesel rated, what exactly does that mean?� Pick up a bottle of 10w40 petrol oil and it will indeed be diesel rated on the back, you can read the rating.� Today I used some diesel oil in my sisters petrol car, because guess what its petrol rated if you read the label, the top petrol rating actually&.
So using diesel rated or motorcycle rated just makes me think what are they talking about?� Now if you said it has to be a minimum of CF4 diesel rated, Id understand as that actually means something.
Interesting discussion,
Greg.
Particularly as reference is made to diesel rated oil.� All oil sold with ratings is diesel rated, what exactly does that mean?� Pick up a bottle of 10w40 petrol oil and it will indeed be diesel rated on the back, you can read the rating.� Today I used some diesel oil in my sisters petrol car, because guess what its petrol rated if you read the label, the top petrol rating actually&.
So using diesel rated or motorcycle rated just makes me think what are they talking about?� Now if you said it has to be a minimum of CF4 diesel rated, Id understand as that actually means something.
Interesting discussion,
Greg.
Re: engine oil
Am I understanding this right? The n600 is a roller motor and 20/50 oil is bad for any engine?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Greg
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:06
> PM
> Subject:
> RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine
> oil
> Hi
> Bill,
> That makes
> sense, didn�t know it was roller mains. Given how it climbs when cold > should be very suitable for a modern 10w40 or even 5w40/5w50 > type.
> Greg.
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> On Behalf Of
> billmyong@earthlink .net
> Sent:
> 27 April 2008 18:26
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject:
> RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> Greg;
> Oil pressure is normally about 8 to 10
> psi at 3K rpm after it is warmed up (greater speed does not seem to increase > psi ). Cold it will climb to 35 psi.
> At idle 1100 rpm it will read
> Zero. It's is because the bearings are all roller and the oil pump > pushes all the oil (flow) through the engine every minute at idle.
> Bill
> > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > From:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> > On Behalf Of
> > Greg
> > Sent:
> > Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:34 AM
> > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject:
> > RE:
> > [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> > The more
> > modern the oil the better. The oil specified for these engines was of > > the available choice at the time, grades like 10w40 and 5w50 didn�t exist > > back then.
> > I�m not
> > familiar with the engine, how tight are the tolerances and how well does it > > keep oil pressure at idle? If the answer to both is very good, then > > I�d go with a 10w40. Don�t worry about if it�s fully, part or not > > synth, as you would be well recommended not to push extended service > > intervals which is where the synth comes into it. If changing oil > > regularly mineral oil won�t have had chance to degrade but you will be > > getting rid of all the contaminants much more often. So go with the > > best grade you can get cheaply in something like a 10w40 or 5w40/5w50.
> > If the
> > engine struggles for oil pressure at idle and has poor machining, you will > > need a thicker oil to keep oil pressure up � so try a 15w40 or if it comes > > to it the dreaded 20w50 (try to get a good grade, most of the latter is > > sludge). The thinner the oil the better as it gets round faster and > > protects from start up sooner and has less frictional drag, but if the > > engine�s clearances are very poor thin oil will leak out from the journals > > etc too much and you�ll lose oil pressure at idle, hence my question > > above.
> > I wouldn�t
> > worry about an oil temp sender as much as fitting a big oil cooler behind > > the gril. That would be a great thing to do on an air cooled engine > > and coupled with a modern thin oil should have your engine way better > > protected and running better too as lower drag and lower heat build > > up. But oil temp sensors normally sit in the sump, anywhere where the > > oil draining back down flows over them and pools.
> > Greg.
> > From:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> > On Behalf Of
> > whitessports39
> > Sent:
> > 26 April 2008 13:27
> > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject:
> > [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> > WHAT IS EVERYONES FEELING ON SYNTHETIC OIL IN THESE LITTLE ENGINES?LETS
> > NOT FORGET THE TRANNY SHARES THE SAME. BEST PLACE FOR OIL > > TEMP.SENDER?
> > REBUILT TOP OF ENGINE WITH OVERSIZE PISTONS BUT OUTER PART > > HITS HEAD > > ANYONE ELSEHEAR OF > > THIS?
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date: 4/27/2008 > 9:39 AM
Re: engine oil
Well, I have been using 20W50 in my Honda 600's for years. Normally an oil for Motorcycles that have the engine and transmission using the same oil sump.
When I use an oil cooler there is no burnt or varnish residue on the inside of the engine. However all the engines I have pulled apart, and there have been quite a few, have burnt or varnish residue on the inside of all the cases. So what does that say about regular 10W30 or even 10W40, it seems to be losing its viscosity while being baked on the inside of the engine.
Wear produces heat, and 30 + year old engine parts are going to cause heat. How many of us have used used parts when reassembling their Honda 600 engine.
I have, but I measured the part and made a decision on what was to warn to use again. Honda provides some of these specs, but other areas are left to the knowledge of the person making the repairs. So, keep things to the closest tolerances you can and keep the engine operating at the correct temp. Then change your oil often.
Bill
When I use an oil cooler there is no burnt or varnish residue on the inside of the engine. However all the engines I have pulled apart, and there have been quite a few, have burnt or varnish residue on the inside of all the cases. So what does that say about regular 10W30 or even 10W40, it seems to be losing its viscosity while being baked on the inside of the engine.
Wear produces heat, and 30 + year old engine parts are going to cause heat. How many of us have used used parts when reassembling their Honda 600 engine.
I have, but I measured the part and made a decision on what was to warn to use again. Honda provides some of these specs, but other areas are left to the knowledge of the person making the repairs. So, keep things to the closest tolerances you can and keep the engine operating at the correct temp. Then change your oil often.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> cotton
> Sent:
> Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:08 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners]
> engine oil
> Am I understanding this right? The n600 is a roller motor and 20/50 oil > is bad for any engine?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > Greg
> > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent:
> > Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:06
> > PM
> > Subject:
> > RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine
> > oil
> > Hi
> > Bill,
> > That makes
> > sense, didn�t know it was roller mains. Given how it climbs when cold > > should be very suitable for a modern 10w40 or even 5w40/5w50 > > type.
> > Greg.
> > From:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> > On Behalf Of
> > billmyong@earthlink .net
> > Sent:
> > 27 April 2008 18:26
> > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject:
> > RE: [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> > Greg;
> > Oil pressure is normally about 8 to 10
> > psi at 3K rpm after it is warmed up (greater speed does not seem to increase > > psi ). Cold it will climb to 35 psi.
> > At idle 1100 rpm it will read
> > Zero. It's is because the bearings are all roller and the oil > > pump pushes all the oil (flow) through the engine every minute at > > idle.
> > Bill
> > > -----Original
> > > Message-----
> > > From:
> > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> > > On Behalf Of
> > > Greg
> > > Sent:
> > > Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:34 AM
> > > To:
> > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject:
> > > RE:
> > > [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> > > The more
> > > modern the oil the better. The oil specified for these engines was > > > of the available choice at the time, grades like 10w40 and 5w50 didn�t > > > exist back then.
> > > I�m not
> > > familiar with the engine, how tight are the tolerances and how well does > > > it keep oil pressure at idle? If the answer to both is very good, > > > then I�d go with a 10w40. Don�t worry about if it�s fully, part or > > > not synth, as you would be well recommended not to push extended service > > > intervals which is where the synth comes into it. If changing oil > > > regularly mineral oil won�t have had chance to degrade but you will be > > > getting rid of all the contaminants much more often. So go with the > > > best grade you can get cheaply in something like a 10w40 or 5w40/5w50.
> > > If the
> > > engine struggles for oil pressure at idle and has poor machining, you will > > > need a thicker oil to keep oil pressure up � so try a 15w40 or if it comes > > > to it the dreaded 20w50 (try to get a good grade, most of the latter is > > > sludge). The thinner the oil the better as it gets round faster and > > > protects from start up sooner and has less frictional drag, but if the > > > engine�s clearances are very poor thin oil will leak out from the journals > > > etc too much and you�ll lose oil pressure at idle, hence my question > > > above.
> > > I
> > > wouldn�t worry about an oil temp sender as much as fitting a big oil > > > cooler behind the gril. That would be a great thing to do on an air > > > cooled engine and coupled with a modern thin oil should have your engine > > > way better protected and running better too as lower drag and lower heat > > > build up. But oil temp sensors normally sit in the sump, anywhere > > > where the oil draining back down flows over them and > > > pools.
> > > Greg.
> > > From:
> > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > [mailto:anzhonda600 owners@yahoogrou ps.com]
> > > On Behalf Of
> > > whitessports39
> > > Sent:
> > > 26 April 2008 13:27
> > > To:
> > > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > > Subject:
> > > [anzhonda600owners] engine oil
> > > WHAT IS EVERYONES FEELING ON SYNTHETIC OIL IN THESE LITTLE ENGINES?LETS
> > > NOT FORGET THE TRANNY SHARES THE SAME. BEST PLACE FOR OIL > > > TEMP.SENDER?
> > > REBUILT TOP OF ENGINE WITH OVERSIZE PISTONS BUT OUTER PART > > > HITS HEAD > > > ANYONE ELSEHEAR OF > > > THIS?
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1400 - Release Date:
> > 4/27/2008 9:39 AM