I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed enough, and cheap materials.
Problems with cam chain components:
*Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets the chain get loose.
*Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
*Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin & slider fall out.
*Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
I will use a new chain.
The wheels and rollers are good.
The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
Lyle
Cam chain tensioner piston
20W-50 oil??
Lyle, I just saw that you said you will be using 20W-50 oil? Is that the recommended weight oil for these engines?
I know they will need a little thicker oil since all the bearings are roller type, but that still seams awfully thick. I was also going to add Lucas Oil to my crankcase. It thickens the oil, and helps it "stick" to moving parts. It's supposed to be great for manual transmissions, so I figure it will help my Honda engine last longer to.
what do you think?
I know they will need a little thicker oil since all the bearings are roller type, but that still seams awfully thick. I was also going to add Lucas Oil to my crankcase. It thickens the oil, and helps it "stick" to moving parts. It's supposed to be great for manual transmissions, so I figure it will help my Honda engine last longer to.
what do you think?
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed enough, and cheap materials.
> Problems with cam chain components:
> *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets the chain get loose.
> *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin & slider fall out.
> *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> I will use a new chain.
> The wheels and rollers are good.
> The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> Lyle
Re: 20W-50 oil??
Honda never recommended 50 weight oil for these engines. Thicker oil does not make it "stick" to the parts better once the parts are in motion.
Why don't you just use a single weight oil. For temperatures from 59F to 86F, use 30 weight. For temperatures above 86F, use 40 weight.
These are the mfg recommended oil weights. You could also use a synthetic oil but they are more costly.
Also, I would skip the oil additives ...... I think they have some benefits but are mostly hype unless you know what you are really doing.
The big brand name oils are already putting the necessary additive package into the oils.
Finally, you have a worn out engine. Give the engine more frequent oil changes to remove the metal which is going to be building up in the oil. The fresh oil will have the additive package which keeps the small metal particles in colloidal suspension and minimizes engine damage.
good luck,
Dale
Why don't you just use a single weight oil. For temperatures from 59F to 86F, use 30 weight. For temperatures above 86F, use 40 weight.
These are the mfg recommended oil weights. You could also use a synthetic oil but they are more costly.
Also, I would skip the oil additives ...... I think they have some benefits but are mostly hype unless you know what you are really doing.
The big brand name oils are already putting the necessary additive package into the oils.
Finally, you have a worn out engine. Give the engine more frequent oil changes to remove the metal which is going to be building up in the oil. The fresh oil will have the additive package which keeps the small metal particles in colloidal suspension and minimizes engine damage.
good luck,
Dale
> Lyle,
> I just saw that you said you will be using 20W-50 oil? Is that the recommended > weight oil for these engines?
> I know they will need a little thicker
> oil since all the bearings are roller type, but that still seams awfully > thick. I was also going to add Lucas Oil to my crankcase. It thickens the oil, > and helps it "stick" to moving parts. It's supposed to be great for manual > transmissions, so I figure it will help my Honda engine last longer > to.
> what do you think?
-
lyletrudell
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 pm
Re: 20W-50 oil??
Oil is a big issue with this engine. Dale, like you said, changing it more often, using a good oil and maybe an oil cooler is the key.
But, our engine oils have changed over the past 2-5 years!
In some ways better with multi-grades that have a wider viscosity range than years ago.
Also worse with Anti-wear additives being removed, the most common zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP), which is a combination of zinc and phosphorus. Taken out because it will hurt the catalytic converters on the newer cars, which now have roller cams/lifters.
I have a 70 Opel GT and 59 Triumph TR3 and our clubs have been researching and testing this for years. The conclusion is we need this in our flat tappet engines.
Most motorcycles also have the same issue.
One of the oils we decided to use in the cars is Rotella-T 15W-40 for diesel engines, because of the higher levels of (ZDP) and it's available everywhere and cheap. Some also add a 1/2 can of STP in hotter climates.
In my Motorcycle engines I use Castrol Actevo 20w-50.
Watch out, most oils like castrol, valvoline and others have removed the (ZDP)and they don't say they removed it! Rotella still has it as of the new year.
Don't run a straight 50 weight oil, a multi-grade is best for these engines because of varying temperature ranges.
The Honda engine:
*Is a flat tappet engine.
*Roller bearings running on a crank with no sleeves.
*It uses aluminum as a bearing surface.
*Very low oil pressure to the bearings if any.
*A piston type oil pump.
*Air cooled.
How does your Honda engine look after 75K miles? Worn and the clearances are now greater just like all my engines.
It's your engine, do some research, type in(ZDP air cooled motorcycle engines)and you will know more about oil and additives than you ever wanted to.
I say in warmer climates use 15w-40 or 20w-50 with a high level of (ZDP).
Just my 2 cents, minus taxes!
Lyle
But, our engine oils have changed over the past 2-5 years!
In some ways better with multi-grades that have a wider viscosity range than years ago.
Also worse with Anti-wear additives being removed, the most common zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP), which is a combination of zinc and phosphorus. Taken out because it will hurt the catalytic converters on the newer cars, which now have roller cams/lifters.
I have a 70 Opel GT and 59 Triumph TR3 and our clubs have been researching and testing this for years. The conclusion is we need this in our flat tappet engines.
Most motorcycles also have the same issue.
One of the oils we decided to use in the cars is Rotella-T 15W-40 for diesel engines, because of the higher levels of (ZDP) and it's available everywhere and cheap. Some also add a 1/2 can of STP in hotter climates.
In my Motorcycle engines I use Castrol Actevo 20w-50.
Watch out, most oils like castrol, valvoline and others have removed the (ZDP)and they don't say they removed it! Rotella still has it as of the new year.
Don't run a straight 50 weight oil, a multi-grade is best for these engines because of varying temperature ranges.
The Honda engine:
*Is a flat tappet engine.
*Roller bearings running on a crank with no sleeves.
*It uses aluminum as a bearing surface.
*Very low oil pressure to the bearings if any.
*A piston type oil pump.
*Air cooled.
How does your Honda engine look after 75K miles? Worn and the clearances are now greater just like all my engines.
It's your engine, do some research, type in(ZDP air cooled motorcycle engines)and you will know more about oil and additives than you ever wanted to.
I say in warmer climates use 15w-40 or 20w-50 with a high level of (ZDP).
Just my 2 cents, minus taxes!
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@... wrote:
> Honda never recommended 50 weight oil for these engines. Thicker oil does
> not make it "stick" to the parts better once the parts are in motion. Why
> don't you just use a single weight oil. For temperatures from 59F to
> 86F, use 30 weight. For temperatures above 86F, use 40 weight. These are the
> mfg recommended oil weights. You could also use a synthetic oil but they
> are more costly.
> Also, I would skip the oil additives ...... I think they have some
> benefits but are mostly hype unless you know what you are really doing. The big
> brand name oils are already putting the necessary additive package into the
> oils.
> Finally, you have a worn out engine. Give the engine more frequent oil
> changes to remove the metal which is going to be building up in the oil.
> The fresh oil will have the additive package which keeps the small metal
> particles in colloidal suspension and minimizes engine damage.
> good luck,
> Dale
> Lyle, I just saw that you said you will be using 20W-50 oil? Is that the
> recommended weight oil for these engines?
> I know they will need a little thicker oil since all the bearings are
> roller type, but that still seams awfully thick. I was also going to add Lucas
> Oil to my crankcase. It thickens the oil, and helps it "stick" to moving
> parts. It's supposed to be great for manual transmissions, so I figure it
> will help my Honda engine last longer to.
> what do you think?
-
misterpoopoohead
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:34 am
Re: 20W-50 oil??
I use Lucas synthetic 20W-50 in my sedan. No problems. Well, except when I put the filter in upside down. ;o)
Kev Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From:
"Mega"
Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:29:33 -0000
To:
ReplyTo:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] 20W-50 oil??
Lyle, I just saw that you said you will be using 20W-50 oil? Is that the recommended weight oil for these engines?
I know they will need a little thicker oil since all the bearings are roller type, but that still seams awfully thick. I was also going to add Lucas Oil to my crankcase. It thickens the oil, and helps it "stick" to moving parts. It's supposed to be great for manual transmissions, so I figure it will help my Honda engine last longer to.
what do you think?
Kev Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From:
"Mega"
Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:29:33 -0000
To:
ReplyTo:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] 20W-50 oil??
Lyle, I just saw that you said you will be using 20W-50 oil? Is that the recommended weight oil for these engines?
I know they will need a little thicker oil since all the bearings are roller type, but that still seams awfully thick. I was also going to add Lucas Oil to my crankcase. It thickens the oil, and helps it "stick" to moving parts. It's supposed to be great for manual transmissions, so I figure it will help my Honda engine last longer to.
what do you think?
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed enough, and cheap materials.
> Problems with cam chain components:
> *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets the chain get loose.
> *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin & slider fall out.
> *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> I will use a new chain.
> The wheels and rollers are good.
> The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> Lyle
-
misterpoopoohead
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:34 am
Re: 20W-50 oil??
hmmm... My owners manual says 20W/40 or 20W/50 for multigrade in temperatures above 32 degrees F. So, in my area I could get away with multigrade 10W/30 as long as temp is between 5 degrees and 86 degrees F.
Kev Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From:
goinhm@...
Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:50:40 EDT
To:
ReplyTo:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [anzhonda600owners] 20W-50 oil??
Honda never recommended 50 weight oil for these engines. Thicker oil does not make it "stick" to the parts better once the parts are in motion.
Why don't you just use a single weight oil. For temperatures from 59F to 86F, use 30 weight. For temperatures above 86F, use 40 weight.
These are the mfg recommended oil weights. You could also use a synthetic oil but they are more costly.
Also, I would skip the oil additives ...... I think they have some benefits but are mostly hype unless you know what you are really doing.
The big brand name oils are already putting the necessary additive package into the oils.
Finally, you have a worn out engine. Give the engine more frequent oil changes to remove the metal which is going to be building up in the oil. The fresh oil will have the additive package which keeps the small metal particles in colloidal suspension and minimizes engine damage.
good luck,
Dale
Kev Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From:
goinhm@...
Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2010 15:50:40 EDT
To:
ReplyTo:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
Re: [anzhonda600owners] 20W-50 oil??
Honda never recommended 50 weight oil for these engines. Thicker oil does not make it "stick" to the parts better once the parts are in motion.
Why don't you just use a single weight oil. For temperatures from 59F to 86F, use 30 weight. For temperatures above 86F, use 40 weight.
These are the mfg recommended oil weights. You could also use a synthetic oil but they are more costly.
Also, I would skip the oil additives ...... I think they have some benefits but are mostly hype unless you know what you are really doing.
The big brand name oils are already putting the necessary additive package into the oils.
Finally, you have a worn out engine. Give the engine more frequent oil changes to remove the metal which is going to be building up in the oil. The fresh oil will have the additive package which keeps the small metal particles in colloidal suspension and minimizes engine damage.
good luck,
Dale
> Lyle,
> I just saw that you said you will be using 20W-50 oil? Is that the recommended > weight oil for these engines?
> I know they will need a little thicker
> oil since all the bearings are roller type, but that still seams awfully > thick. I was also going to add Lucas Oil to my crankcase. It thickens the oil, > and helps it "stick" to moving parts. It's supposed to be great for manual > transmissions, so I figure it will help my Honda engine last longer > to.
> what do you think?
Re: 20W-50 oil??
Hi Lyle,
Thanks for this info on the oils and ZDP. I did do a search on the keywords you suggested and saw lots of info from motorcycle and car clubs plus companies selling lubrication products. Looks like ZDP is a desirable additive for our cars and cannot doing any harm to them. I also did a search on the keywords
"SAE oil ZDP" to see what info was available from the auto manufacturer side. This also had lots of good info with background on ZDP and the backward compatibility of new oils with older engines. One SAE article pretty much said that unless your engine has high valve train forces such as a 60s Dodge Hemi, the modern motor oils will work fine and they were developed to be backward compatible with older engines.
The actual SAE site has many articles on lubrication but they are for sale. So, then it requires some extra effort to find someone who has posted the article (or condensed version of it) elsewhere on the web. Anyone on here have a copy of the SAE 2004 Powertrain Conference?
Months ago, I saw someone make a post recommending using an oil formulated for motorcycles. That is probably not a bad idea since the oil is intended for systems where the engine and tranny share the same lubrication. And maybe they put some ZDP in it.
thanks again, Lyle, for your comments,
Dale
Thanks for this info on the oils and ZDP. I did do a search on the keywords you suggested and saw lots of info from motorcycle and car clubs plus companies selling lubrication products. Looks like ZDP is a desirable additive for our cars and cannot doing any harm to them. I also did a search on the keywords
"SAE oil ZDP" to see what info was available from the auto manufacturer side. This also had lots of good info with background on ZDP and the backward compatibility of new oils with older engines. One SAE article pretty much said that unless your engine has high valve train forces such as a 60s Dodge Hemi, the modern motor oils will work fine and they were developed to be backward compatible with older engines.
The actual SAE site has many articles on lubrication but they are for sale. So, then it requires some extra effort to find someone who has posted the article (or condensed version of it) elsewhere on the web. Anyone on here have a copy of the SAE 2004 Powertrain Conference?
Months ago, I saw someone make a post recommending using an oil formulated for motorcycles. That is probably not a bad idea since the oil is intended for systems where the engine and tranny share the same lubrication. And maybe they put some ZDP in it.
thanks again, Lyle, for your comments,
Dale
> Oil is
> a big issue with this engine. Dale, like you said, changing it more often, > using a good oil and maybe an oil cooler is the key.
> But, our engine
> oils have changed over the past 2-5 years!
> In some ways better with
> multi-grades that have a wider viscosity range than years ago.
> Also worse
> with Anti-wear additives being removed, the most common zinc dithiophosphate > (ZDP), which is a combination of zinc and phosphorus. Taken out because it > will hurt the catalytic converters on the newer cars, which now have roller > cams/lifters.
> I have a 70 Opel GT and 59 Triumph TR3 and our clubs have
> been researching and testing this for years. The conclusion is we need this in > our flat tappet engines.
> Most motorcycles also have the same issue.
> One
> of the oils we decided to use in the cars is Rotella-T 15W-40 for diesel > engines, because of the higher levels of (ZDP) and it's available everywhere > and cheap. Some also add a 1/2 can of STP in hotter climates.
> In my
> Motorcycle engines I use Castrol Actevo 20w-50.
> Watch out, most oils like
> castrol, valvoline and others have removed the (ZDP)and they don't say they > removed it! Rotella still has it as of the new year.
> Don't run a
> straight 50 weight oil, a multi-grade is best for these engines because of > varying temperature ranges.
> The Honda engine:
> *Is a flat tappet
> engine.
> *Roller bearings running on a crank with no sleeves.
> *It uses
> aluminum as a bearing surface.
> *Very low oil pressure to the bearings if
> any.
> *A piston type oil pump.
> *Air cooled.
> How does your Honda
> engine look after 75K miles? Worn and the clearances are now greater just like > all my engines.
> It's your engine, do some research, type in(ZDP air
> cooled motorcycle engines)and you will know more about oil and additives than > you ever wanted to.
> I say in warmer climates use 15w-40 or 20w-50 with a
> high level of (ZDP).
> Just my 2 cents, minus
> taxes!
> Lyle
Re: 20W-50 oil??
Really;
Normally I agree to most information put on the site. But, thinner grades of oil 5W30 and the like are there because of the closer tolerances most new engines have. Thicker oils like 20W50 and up are used in engines that have wear. ZDDP and other additives have limited qualities. Like STP, I used to run it in my 65 Chevy Nova because it didn't smoke (as much) as long as I had a couple of quarts of the stuff in my engine. It didn't help the wear any, as it didn't replace any of the metal. Take a look at the site below and see what others are saying.
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Thick ... ter%20Myth
Change the oil, use a good filter and things should go well.
Just remember one thing, these engines (the Honda 600) are high revving and warm up quickly. The warmer the metal parts are in your engine the greater chance of wear. Heat also breaks down the viscosity oil, removing the heat will allow the oil to retain it's viscosity, which allows the oil to keep a thin coating on the cylinder walls.
Bill
Normally I agree to most information put on the site. But, thinner grades of oil 5W30 and the like are there because of the closer tolerances most new engines have. Thicker oils like 20W50 and up are used in engines that have wear. ZDDP and other additives have limited qualities. Like STP, I used to run it in my 65 Chevy Nova because it didn't smoke (as much) as long as I had a couple of quarts of the stuff in my engine. It didn't help the wear any, as it didn't replace any of the metal. Take a look at the site below and see what others are saying.
http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Thick ... ter%20Myth
Change the oil, use a good filter and things should go well.
Just remember one thing, these engines (the Honda 600) are high revving and warm up quickly. The warmer the metal parts are in your engine the greater chance of wear. Heat also breaks down the viscosity oil, removing the heat will allow the oil to retain it's viscosity, which allows the oil to keep a thin coating on the cylinder walls.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> goinhm@...
> Sent:
> Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:21
> PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re:
> [anzhonda600owners] Re: 20W-50 oil??
> Hi Lyle,
> Thanks for this info on the oils and ZDP. I did
> do a search on the keywords you suggested and saw lots of info from motorcycle > and car clubs plus companies selling lubrication products. Looks like > ZDP is a desirable additive for our cars and cannot doing any harm to > them. I also did a search on the keywords
> "SAE oil ZDP" to see what info was available from the auto > manufacturer side. This also had lots of good info with background on > ZDP and the backward compatibility of new oils with older > engines. One SAE article pretty much said that unless your engine > has high valve train forces such as a 60s Dodge Hemi, the modern motor oils > will work fine and they were developed to be backward compatible with older > engines.
> The actual SAE site has many articles on lubrication
> but they are for sale. So, then it requires some extra effort to > find someone who has posted the article (or condensed version of it) elsewhere > on the web. Anyone on here have a copy of the SAE 2004 Powertrain > Conference?
> Months ago, I saw someone make a post
> recommending using an oil formulated for motorcycles. That is probably > not a bad idea since the oil is intended for systems where the engine and > tranny share the same lubrication. And maybe they put some ZDP in > it.
> thanks again, Lyle, for your comments,
> Dale
> > Oil
> > is a big issue with this engine. Dale, like you said, changing it more > > often, using a good oil and maybe an oil cooler is the key.
> > But, our
> > engine oils have changed over the past 2-5 years!
> > In some ways better
> > with multi-grades that have a wider viscosity range than years ago.
> > Also
> > worse with Anti-wear additives being removed, the most common zinc > > dithiophosphate (ZDP), which is a combination of zinc and phosphorus. Taken > > out because it will hurt the catalytic converters on the newer cars, which > > now have roller cams/lifters.
> > I have a 70 Opel GT and 59 Triumph TR3 and
> > our clubs have been researching and testing this for years. The conclusion > > is we need this in our flat tappet engines.
> > Most motorcycles also have
> > the same issue.
> > One of the oils we decided to use in the cars is
> > Rotella-T 15W-40 for diesel engines, because of the higher levels of (ZDP) > > and it's available everywhere and cheap. Some also add a 1/2 can of STP in > > hotter climates.
> > In my Motorcycle engines I use Castrol Actevo
> > 20w-50.
> > Watch out, most oils like castrol, valvoline and others have > > removed the (ZDP)and they don't say they removed it! Rotella still has it as > > of the new year.
> > Don't run a straight 50 weight oil, a multi-grade is
> > best for these engines because of varying temperature ranges.
> > The
> > Honda engine:
> > *Is a flat tappet engine.
> > *Roller bearings running on a
> > crank with no sleeves.
> > *It uses aluminum as a bearing surface.
> > *Very
> > low oil pressure to the bearings if any.
> > *A piston type oil pump.
> > *Air
> > cooled.
> > How does your Honda engine look after 75K miles? Worn and the > > clearances are now greater just like all my engines.
> > It's your
> > engine, do some research, type in(ZDP air cooled motorcycle engines)and you > > will know more about oil and additives than you ever wanted to.
> > I say in
> > warmer climates use 15w-40 or 20w-50 with a high level of (ZDP).
> > Just my
> > 2 cents, minus taxes!
> > Lyle
Re: 20W-50 oil??
I would tend to agree with bill on this one. I worked for VW back in the 70s and 80s and it was recommended to run single viscosity oils in the air cooled engines, 30w in the winter and 40w in the summer. And I raced VWs for years and always ran 50w racing oil in them and never had an engine failure. Also the air cooled engines temperatures run in extremes and change rapidly. VWs ran oil coolers from the factory .It was always recommended to run bigger oil coolers for racing as the oil did take part in the cooling of the engine. So I would believe that running an external filter and cooler would be very helpful in not only helping the engine run cleaner and cooler that the extra oil capacity would take longer to break down. And as far as the thinner grades of oil being used in the newer cars, yes the clearances are much tighter,and with the help of the newer synthetics they can run a very thin viscosity oil. Part of the reason they do this is to increase the fuel mileage on these newer cars. But for these older cars, use a thicker oil. Anyway, that is my opinion. Brad
-
lyletrudell
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 pm
Re: 20W-50 oil??
Hey good info!
Using a straight 50w oil might be a good idea in our Honda's that are used in hot climates. 40W in cooler climates. With high levels of ZDP.
So we agree:
*Air cooled engines heat up very quick.
*Our engines have looser clearances.
*We have blow bye from the rings.
*No valve seals.
*Short run times & high RPM's.
*Transmission uses the same oil.
*We only have about 3 quarts of oil to work with, so it gets dirty and diluted very fast.
*New oils have less or no ZDP.
No wonder the engines are worn out after 70K miles!
The thought of using a multigrade 20w-50 was quick flow to the bearings as a 20w and the protection of a 50w when it warms up.
But, maybe we don't need this.
A motorcycle oil might be a good way to go. Not sure about how much ZDP is in them, but it should be much higher than auto oil.
Something to check on.
Thanks for the imput.
Lyle
Using a straight 50w oil might be a good idea in our Honda's that are used in hot climates. 40W in cooler climates. With high levels of ZDP.
So we agree:
*Air cooled engines heat up very quick.
*Our engines have looser clearances.
*We have blow bye from the rings.
*No valve seals.
*Short run times & high RPM's.
*Transmission uses the same oil.
*We only have about 3 quarts of oil to work with, so it gets dirty and diluted very fast.
*New oils have less or no ZDP.
No wonder the engines are worn out after 70K miles!
The thought of using a multigrade 20w-50 was quick flow to the bearings as a 20w and the protection of a 50w when it warms up.
But, maybe we don't need this.
A motorcycle oil might be a good way to go. Not sure about how much ZDP is in them, but it should be much higher than auto oil.
Something to check on.
Thanks for the imput.
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, brad fenn wrote:
> I would tend to agree with bill on this one. I worked for VW back in the 70s and
> 80s and it was recommended to run single viscosity oils in the air cooled
> engines, 30w in the winter and 40w in the summer. And I raced VWs for years and
> always ran 50w racing oil in them and never had an engine failure. Also the air
> cooled engines temperatures run in extremes and change rapidly. VWs ran oil
> coolers from the factory .It was always recommended to run bigger oil coolers
> for racing as the oil did take part in the cooling of the engine. So I would
> believe that running an external filter and cooler would be very helpful in not
> only helping the engine run cleaner and cooler that the extra oil capacity would
> take longer to break down. And as far as the thinner grades of oil being used
> in the newer cars, yes the clearances are much tighter,and with the help of the
> newer synthetics they can run a very thin viscosity oil. Part of the reason they
> do this is to increase the fuel mileage on these newer cars. But for these older
> cars, use a thicker oil. Anyway, that is my opinion. Brad
> From: "billmyong@..."
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 11:48:02 PM
> Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] Re: 20W-50 oil??
> Really;
> Normally I agree to most information put on the site. But, thinner grades of
> oil 5W30 and the like are there because of the closer tolerances most new
> engines have. Thicker oils like 20W50 and up are used in engines that have
> wear. ZDDP and other additives have limited qualities. Like STP, I used to
> run it in my 65 Chevy Nova because it didn't smoke (as much) as long as I had a
> couple of quarts of the stuff in my engine. It didn't help the wear any, as
> it didn't replace any of the metal. Take a look at the site below and see
> what others are saying.
http://www.nordicgr
oup.us/oil. htm#Thicker% 20is%20Better% 20Myth
> Change the oil, use a good filter and things should go well.
> Just remember one thing, these engines (the Honda 600) are high revving and
> warm up quickly. The warmer the metal parts are in your engine the greater
> chance of wear. Heat also breaks down the viscosity oil, removing the heat
> will allow the oil to retain it's viscosity, which allows the oil to keep a thin
> coating on the cylinder walls.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anzhonda600
> >owners@yahoogrou ps.com]On Behalf Of goinhm@...
> >Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:21 PM
> >To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> >Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: 20W-50 oil??
> >Hi Lyle,
> > Thanks for this info on the oils and ZDP. I did do a search on the
> >keywords you suggested and saw lots of info from motorcycle and car clubs
> >plus companies selling lubrication products. Looks like ZDP is a desirable
> >additive for our cars and cannot doing any harm to them. I also did a search
> >on the keywords
> >"SAE oil ZDP" to see what info was available from the auto manufacturer
> >side. This also had lots of good info with background on ZDP and the backward
> >compatibility of new oils with older engines. One SAE article pretty much
> >said that unless your engine has high valve train forces such as a 60s Dodge
> >Hemi, the modern motor oils will work fine and they were developed to be
> >backward compatible with older engines.
> > The actual SAE site has many articles on lubrication but they are for
> >sale. So, then it requires some extra effort to find someone who has posted
> >the article (or condensed version of it) elsewhere on the web. Anyone on
> >here have a copy of the SAE 2004 Powertrain Conference?
> > Months ago, I saw someone make a post recommending using an oil
> >formulated for motorcycles. That is probably not a bad idea since the oil is
> >intended for systems where the engine and tranny share the same lubrication.
> >And maybe they put some ZDP in it.
> >thanks again, Lyle, for your comments,
> >Dale
> >Oil is a big issue with this engine. Dale, like you said, changing it more
> >often, using a good oil and maybe an oil cooler is the key.
> >>But, our engine oils have changed over the past 2-5 years!
> >>In some ways better with multi-grades that have a wider viscosity range
> >>than years ago.
> >>Also worse with Anti-wear additives being removed, the most common zinc
> >>dithiophosphate (ZDP), which is a combination of zinc and phosphorus. Taken
> >>out because it will hurt the catalytic converters on the newer cars, which
> >>now have roller cams/lifters.
> >>I have a 70 Opel GT and 59 Triumph TR3 and our clubs have been researching
> >>and testing this for years. The conclusion is we need this in our flat
> >>tappet engines.
> >>Most motorcycles also have the same issue.
> >>One of the oils we decided to use in the cars is Rotella-T 15W-40 for diesel
> >>engines, because of the higher levels of (ZDP) and it's available
> >>everywhere and cheap. Some also add a 1/2 can of STP in hotter climates.
> >>In my Motorcycle engines I use CastrolActevo 20w-50.
> >>Watch out, most oils like castrol, valvoline and others have removed the
> >>(ZDP)and they don't say they removed it! Rotella still has it as of the new
> >>year.
> >>Don't run a straight 50 weight oil, a multi-grade is best for these engines
> >>because of varying temperature ranges.
> >>The Honda engine:
> >>*Is a flat tappet engine.
> >>*Roller bearings running on a crank with no sleeves.
> >>*It uses aluminum as a bearing surface.
> >>*Very low oil pressure to the bearings if any.
> >>*A piston type oil pump.
> >>*Air cooled.
> >>How does your Honda engine look after 75K miles? Worn and the clearances
> >>are now greater just like all my engines.
> >>It's your engine, do some research, type in(ZDP air cooled motorcycle
> >>engines)and you will know more about oil and additives than you ever wanted
> >>to.
> >>I say in warmer climates use 15w-40 or 20w-50 with a high level of (ZDP).
> >>Just my 2 cents, minus taxes!
> >>Lyle