about those serial numbers.. N600 engine

[zinc2u]

In an earlier msg,   I mentioned some serial number info which was not quite correct.  When you are looking at the engine serial number (stamped on top of engine near primary drive cover),  the engines sold in the USA would start with N600E-150...... if they were a sedan (N600) and N600E-250...... if they were a coupe (Z600).
You were asking if the sedan engine would work in a coupe.   Yes it can be made to work.  The sedan engines came in 2 major variations.....
the early ones did not have synchromesh transmission.  That came later.  The crossover point can be determined by the serial number.
If the s/n is N600E-1500001 or above, it has the synchromesh tranny.  It should also have most of the parts which you would also find in a coupe engine with the exception of the differences I mentioned earlier.
This information can be found in the parts catalogs for the coupe and sedan.
good luck,
Dale

> Something else I just remembered ...... if you get the 1970 vintage N600 > engine with the non-synchro tranny, it had a speedometer gear (in the reverse > gear cover) which is different than every other model sold in the US.  If > you use this in your Z600 or later model N600,  the speed is wrong on the > speedometer.
> If you find the engine for sale at $150 is this early vintage,  that > can still be a good price.  Pull of the valve cover and look at the > camshaft and rocker arms.  A set of good rocker arms and camshaft, >  plus end cap bearings alone are worth $150.
> good luck,
> Dale
> In a message dated 4/25/2015 3:25:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com writes:
> > If you don't already have lots of parts for your car,  the price > > of $150 is a good deal provided the engine doesn't look like it has been > > submerged in water for any period of time.
> > Is it the same engine?  Sort of.  You can make either engine > > work in either series of car.  Depending on the vintage of the N600 > > engine, it may be easier to make the swap.  Take a look at the parts > > catalogs (click > > here > > ) > > to spot the differences based on the engine serial numbers.  While it > > will work,  the engine you probably want to avoid is the early style > > with the non-synchro transmission (the serial number starts with N150 ....
> > verify in the catalogs).  The better stuff is N250.....
> > Some of the big differences which affect the installation are;
> > 1) heat exchanger and exhaust system
> > 2) valve cover port (the valve cover and camshaft housing were > > different between N & Z)
> > 3) cooling fan
> > 4) intake manifold and carb (if you get the early style carb with the > > diaphragm)
> > 5) Z engine had a mechanical tach off camshaft housing which was absent > > in N600
> > I have used N600 engines in a Z600.  And you can always put the > > mechanical tach assy on the N600 engine or add an electronic tach.
> > From a purist point of view,  when you look at both,  someone will > > spot the different valve cover appearance.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > > hi, i have a Honda Z600 that i need a motor for. I have a lead on > > > an N600. Im wondering if its the same engine as the Z? The car has been > > > sitting and the person that has it doesnt even know if it will turn over.
> > > If it does is it worth $150? Not to many of these cars in the middle of > > > the country.  thanks, Tim

[T W S]

Thanks Dale, its going to be a few days before i can see the N600. When i got Z, the cars in ok shape but theres a big hole in the case in the front bottom of the engine, dont know if something went in or something came out. I never tore down the engine to look at it. i was hoping there was an easy alternative engine but that doesnt seem to pan out either. If i could get that engine to work even if it have an accurate tach or speedo, i thought it might be worth doing. I have all the accessories from the Z
On Saturday, April 25, 2015 6:00 PM, "goinhm@... [anzhonda600owners]" wrote:
In an earlier msg,   I mentioned some serial number info which was not quite correct.  When you are looking at the engine serial number (stamped on top of engine near primary drive cover),  the engines sold in the USA would start with N600E-150...... if they were a sedan (N600) and N600E-250...... if they were a coupe (Z600).
You were asking if the sedan engine would work in a coupe.   Yes it can be made to work.  The sedan engines came in 2 major variations.....
the early ones did not have synchromesh transmission.  That came later.  The crossover point can be determined by the serial number.
If the s/n is N600E-1500001 or above, it has the synchromesh tranny.  It should also have most of the parts which you would also find in a coupe engine with the exception of the differences I mentioned earlier.
This information can be found in the parts catalogs for the coupe and sedan.
good luck,
Dale

> Something else I just remembered ...... if you get the 1970 vintage N600 > engine with the non-synchro tranny, it had a speedometer gear (in the reverse > gear cover) which is different than every other model sold in the US.  If > you use this in your Z600 or later model N600,  the speed is wrong on the > speedometer.
> If you find the engine for sale at $150 is this early vintage,  that > can still be a good price.  Pull of the valve cover and look at the > camshaft and rocker arms.  A set of good rocker arms and camshaft, >  plus end cap bearings alone are worth $150.
> good luck,
> Dale
> In a message dated 4/25/2015 3:25:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com writes:
> > If you don't already have lots of parts for your car,  the price > > of $150 is a good deal provided the engine doesn't look like it has been > > submerged in water for any period of time.
> > Is it the same engine?  Sort of.  You can make either engine > > work in either series of car.  Depending on the vintage of the N600 > > engine, it may be easier to make the swap.  Take a look at the parts > > catalogs (click > > here > > ) > > to spot the differences based on the engine serial numbers.  While it > > will work,  the engine you probably want to avoid is the early style > > with the non-synchro transmission (the serial number starts with N150 ....
> > verify in the catalogs).  The better stuff is N250.....
> > Some of the big differences which affect the installation are;
> > 1) heat exchanger and exhaust system
> > 2) valve cover port (the valve cover and camshaft housing were > > different between N & Z)
> > 3) cooling fan
> > 4) intake manifold and carb (if you get the early style carb with the > > diaphragm)
> > 5) Z engine had a mechanical tach off camshaft housing which was absent > > in N600
> > I have used N600 engines in a Z600.  And you can always put the > > mechanical tach assy on the N600 engine or add an electronic tach.
> > From a purist point of view,  when you look at both,  someone will > > spot the different valve cover appearance.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > > hi, i have a Honda Z600 that i need a motor for. I have a lead on > > > an N600. Im wondering if its the same engine as the Z? The car has been > > > sitting and the person that has it doesnt even know if it will turn over.
> > > If it does is it worth $150? Not to many of these cars in the middle of > > > the country.  thanks, Tim

[Bill]

Just to keep things on track.  The speedometer gear is different by one tooth between an engine with a 10 and 20 transmission or the ones with the 15 or 25 transmissions.   To be more specific is that in April 1971 Honda changed the transmission from constant to full synchro.  The constant transmission used a 15 tooth gear for the speedometer and the Full synchro trans uses the 16 tooth gear and either will fit in either engine.
But Dale is correct in that If you use a 15 gear in a full synchro trans the car will register a faster speed on the speedometer than it is really going.
The question “Will a Sedan Honda 600 engine fit in a Coupe”, is Yes and the same the other way around.
The rear engine or trans mount must be changed depending on which car the engine is placed in.
And the cross member and clutch housing for a engine with the later exhaust/heat exchanger is different.
If placing a 10 or 15 engine in a Coupe you will also need the tach drive gear housing to the left cam bearing.
If a 25 engine is being placed in a Sedan then the carb intake manifold should be changed to accommodate the Power Brake Booster, a 25 manifold can be used but the booster vacuum hose will need to be more than twice as long.
Looking at either parts manual will give you a better idea of what you will need.
Bill

[zinc2u]

That big hole in the casing is usually due to the crankshaft failing at a connecting rod.   The Honda 600 crankshafts are more like a motorcycle crank than an auto crank since everything is pressed together.  The Honda 600 crank can be reworked but parts are hard to find.  You usually end up finding another used crank to use.  When Honda did sell the cranks, they were always expensive.   Before Honda stopped selling the cranks,  they wanted around $2000 for them.
good luck on your project.
Dale
In a message dated 4/25/2015 4:19:47 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com writes:

> Thanks Dale, its going to be a few days
> before i can see the N600. When i got Z, the cars in ok shape but theres a big > hole in the case in the front bottom of the engine, dont know if something > went in or something came out. I never tore down the engine to look at it. i > was hoping there was an easy alternative engine but that doesnt seem to pan > out either. If i could get that engine to work even if it have an accurate > tach or speedo, i thought it might be worth doing. I have all the accessories > from the Z
> On Saturday, April 25, 2015 6:00 PM,
> "goinhm@... [anzhonda600owners]" > wrote:
> In an earlier msg,   I mentioned some serial number info
> which was not quite correct.  When you are looking at the engine serial > number (stamped on top of engine near primary drive cover),  the engines > sold in the USA would start with N600E-150...... if they were a sedan > (N600) and N600E-250...... if they were a coupe (Z600).
> You were asking if the sedan engine would work in a coupe.
> Yes it can be made to work.  The sedan engines came in 2 major > variations..... the early ones did not have synchromesh transmission.
> That came later.  The crossover point can be determined by the serial > number.  If the s/n is N600E-1500001 or above, it has the synchromesh > tranny.  It should also have most of the parts which you would also find > in a coupe engine with the exception of the differences I mentioned > earlier.
> This information can be found in the parts catalogs for the coupe and > sedan.
> good luck,
> Dale
> > Something else I just remembered ...... if you get the 1970 vintage > > N600 engine with the non-synchro tranny, it had a speedometer gear (in the > > reverse gear cover) which is different than every other model sold in the > > US.  If you use this in your Z600 or later model N600,  the speed > > is wrong on the speedometer.
> > If you find the engine for sale at $150 is this early vintage, > > that can still be a good price.  Pull of the valve cover and look at > > the camshaft and rocker arms.  A set of good rocker arms and camshaft, > >  plus end cap bearings alone are worth $150.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > In a message dated 4/25/2015 3:25:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com writes:
> > > If you don't already have lots of parts for your car,  the price > > > of $150 is a good deal provided the engine doesn't look like it has been > > > submerged in water for any period of time.
> > > Is it the same engine?  Sort of.  You can make either
> > > engine work in either series of car.  Depending on the vintage of the > > > N600 engine, it may be easier to make the swap.  Take a look at the > > > parts catalogs (click > > > here > > > ) to spot the differences > > > based on the engine serial numbers.  While it will work,  the > > > engine you probably want to avoid is the early style with the non-synchro > > > transmission (the serial number starts with N150 .... verify in the > > > catalogs).  The better stuff is N250.....
> > > Some of the big differences which affect the installation are;
> > > 1) heat exchanger and exhaust system
> > > 2) valve cover port (the valve cover and camshaft housing were > > > different between N & Z)
> > > 3) cooling fan
> > > 4) intake manifold and carb (if you get the early style carb with the > > > diaphragm)
> > > 5) Z engine had a mechanical tach off camshaft housing which was > > > absent in N600
> > > I have used N600 engines in a Z600.  And you can always put the > > > mechanical tach assy on the N600 engine or add an electronic tach.
> > > From a purist point of view,  when you look at both,  someone > > > will spot the different valve cover appearance.
> > > good luck,
> > > Dale
> > > > hi, i have a Honda Z600 that i need a motor for. I have a > > > > lead on an N600. Im wondering if its the same engine as the Z? The car > > > > has been sitting and the person that has it doesnt even know if it will > > > > turn over. If it does is it worth $150? Not to many of these cars in the > > > > middle of the country.  thanks, Tim

[P. D. Kelly]

OK I'll let you know when it comes in, the mail is just slow.
Maybe today.
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
From :"goinhm@... [anzhonda600owners]" Date :Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 5:00 PM Subject :[anzhonda600owners] about those serial numbers.. N600 engine
In an earlier msg,   I mentioned some serial number info which was not quite correct.  When you are looking at the engine serial number (stamped on top of engine near primary drive cover),  the engines sold in the USA would start with N600E-150...... if they were a sedan (N600) and N600E-250...... if they were a coupe (Z600).
You were asking if the sedan engine would work in a coupe.   Yes it can be made to work.  The sedan engines came in 2 major variations.....
the early ones did not have synchromesh transmission.  That came later.  The crossover point can be determined by the serial number.
If the s/n is N600E-1500001 or above, it has the synchromesh tranny.  It should also have most of the parts which you would also find in a coupe engine with the exception of the differences I mentioned earlier.
This information can be found in the parts catalogs for the coupe and sedan.
good luck,
Dale

> Something else I just remembered ...... if you get the 1970 vintage N600 > engine with the non-synchro tranny, it had a speedometer gear (in the reverse > gear cover) which is different than every other model sold in the US.  If > you use this in your Z600 or later model N600,  the speed is wrong on the > speedometer.
> If you find the engine for sale at $150 is this early vintage,  that > can still be a good price.  Pull of the valve cover and look at the > camshaft and rocker arms.  A set of good rocker arms and camshaft, >  plus end cap bearings alone are worth $150.
> good luck,
> Dale
> In a message dated 4/25/2015 3:25:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com writes:
> > If you don't already have lots of parts for your car,  the price > > of $150 is a good deal provided the engine doesn't look like it has been > > submerged in water for any period of time.
> > Is it the same engine?  Sort of.  You can make either engine > > work in either series of car.  Depending on the vintage of the N600 > > engine, it may be easier to make the swap.  Take a look at the parts > > catalogs (click > > here > > ) > > to spot the differences based on the engine serial numbers.  While it > > will work,  the engine you probably want to avoid is the early style > > with the non-synchro transmission (the serial number starts with N150 ....
> > verify in the catalogs).  The better stuff is N250.....
> > Some of the big differences which affect the installation are;
> > 1) heat exchanger and exhaust system
> > 2) valve cover port (the valve cover and camshaft housing were > > different between N & Z)
> > 3) cooling fan
> > 4) intake manifold and carb (if you get the early style carb with the > > diaphragm)
> > 5) Z engine had a mechanical tach off camshaft housing which was absent > > in N600
> > I have used N600 engines in a Z600.  And you can always put the > > mechanical tach assy on the N600 engine or add an electronic tach.
> > From a purist point of view,  when you look at both,  someone will > > spot the different valve cover appearance.
> > good luck,
> > Dale
> > > hi, i have a Honda Z600 that i need a motor for. I have a lead on > > > an N600. Im wondering if its the same engine as the Z? The car has been > > > sitting and the person that has it doesnt even know if it will turn over.
> > > If it does is it worth $150? Not to many of these cars in the middle of > > > the country.  thanks, Tim