stuck in the middle of a tuneup

mterrens · Post by **mterrens** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:20 pm

OK, here is an update on the "tuneup" (AKA trying to get the coupe to start)
Yesterday, I replaced the points and condensor. set the gap on the points. I did not (yet) replace the blue wire, though it was a bit chewed up (meter showed it to not be broken). The car started right up and ran well. I drove it to a local weekly show, then (almost) home. The car died suddenly while coasting to a light. After messing with the points some more I gave up and called AAA.
Today I rebuilt the blue cable with 16 gauge wire and new ends. I installed it - and the OLD condensor, just to see if it was still good. I redid the points gap. The car started up immediately. I let it idle for a while. no problem. I noted a wisp of smoke coming up from the engine bay, took a look, and found that the three wires that run from the engine to the rectifier were melting together at the connectors.
Here is an old picture of those wires.
Turned the car off, stripped the black wrap from the wires and found them fused together for a few inches going back towards the rectifier. I pulled the battery and tray and flipped it over to see the other ends of the wires (they will be replaced altogether). The rectifier is buried in YEARS of road crud - it's amazing the thing worked at all. I will be cleaning all of that up.
Why did the wires melt? Might the rectifier have an issue? Or maybe the connectors just corroded? Any maintainence to do on the rectifier other than clean it? What gauge wire should I use to replace the three bad ones? I plan to use weatherproof bullet connectors at the point where they meet the wires from the motor, rather than the spade-type that was originally there.
Steve

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Steven
> Michelsen
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Sunday, August 10, 2008 12:36
> AM
> Subject:
> Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck
> in the middle of a tuneup
> Mike,
> I am pretty sure I had both wires in the center
> when I tried to start the car.
> No chance to reinstall the points or do any
> testing until tomorrow night at the earliest; I will pass along my > findings.
> Thanks,
> Steve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > Mike and Tami
> > Speer
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent:
> > Saturday, August 09, 2008 11:07
> > AM
> > Subject:
> > RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re:
> > stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > How did you have
> > them Steve?
> > I asked this over
> > at the Honda 600 Owners board but didn�t get an answer, how much spark > > should I see with these?
> > Mine is nice and
> > blue but the spark itself is very thin and hard to see, I had to turn off my > > garage lights to see it well as I could barely see it with the lights > > on.
> > I am used to
> > checking cars with a larger coil and those have a fatter > > spark.
> > Mike
> > From:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of
> > Steven
> > Michelsen
> > Sent:
> > Saturday,
> > August 09, 2008 7:08 AM
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject:
> > Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re:
> > stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > Mark,
> > I think you're right about the
> > condensor wire! I redid the wiring and will reinstall tonight.
> > Here is how it
> > is wired now
> > . Please let me know if this is
> > right.
> > Thanks,
> > Steve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark"
> > > doc_coffin@yahoo. com
> > To: > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008
> > 11:30 PM
> > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re:
> > stuck in the middle of a tuneup
> > > --- In
> > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> > , "Mark
> > Kuran" wrote:
> > >> Check if you have a
> > spark coming out of the wires to the spark plugs
> > >> while
> > cranking.
> > >> Mark
> > > If no spark, check that you
> > have the condenser wire in between the
> > > proper washers and
> > insulators. This very small eror has messed me up
> > > several
> > times!
> > > Mark Coffin
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> > > Yahoo!
> > Groups Links
> > > To

zinc2u · Post by **zinc2u** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:58 pm

Hi Steve,
That bundle of wires from the alternator is the 40+ amps to power the car. Honda took the bundle of wires and held it against the car's chassis with a metal tang. In time, the insulation will break or shrink and you get a low resistance path to the car's ground or they would short when the bare wires would touch (sometimes just the motion of the car will cause the cable to jiggle and make contact). Also, if the spade lugs get corroded, their resistance goes up and they start to generate heat which melts the insulation. You can repair it by replacing the connectors and wrapping it up with some electrical tape and shrink tubing.
good luck,
Dale

> Why did the wires melt? Might the rectifier
> have an issue? Or maybe the connectors just corroded? Any > maintainence to do on the rectifier other than clean it? What gauge wire > should I use to replace the three bad ones? I plan to use weatherproof > bullet connectors at the point where they meet the wires from the motor, > rather than the spade-type that was originally there.

It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here .

mygto_1999 · Post by **mygto_1999** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:12 pm

Is there any maintenance that needs to be done to the rectifier?
Mike

zinc2u · Post by **zinc2u** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:33 pm

Hi Mike,
    No maintenance is necessary for the rectifier. It either works or it doesn't.
You might keep it clean, though. As a result of the current through it, it may
generate several watts of heat.
     I don't think Steve is having a problem with the rectifier. I think he is experiencing
intermittent shorting where one (or more) of the 3 white wires from the alternator is
shorting to the chassis or shorting to one of its neighboring white wires. This causes
the alternator to have to generate a lot of current and the motor doesn't have enough
hp to sustain it.   I think Steve could have disconnected his alternator, taped off the wires from
the alternator, and started his car and driven home. The battery power would have been
sufficient to keep the car running till he arrived home (especially if he wasn't using headlights).
Dale

> Is there any
> maintenance that needs to be done to the rectifier?
> Mike

It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here .

Mike and Tami Speer · Post by **Mike and Tami Speer** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:47 pm

Thanks Dale,
I briefly checked my alternator when I got this running and found the voltage to be barely above battery voltage. It seemed like I had to raise the RPM’s quite a bit before it would reach 13 volts, it then dropped back down to just above battery voltage once it was at an idle again, shouldn’t this be a little better at idle?
I also disconnected the battery with the engine running and it remained running, so it seems like the alternator is working somewhat good.
Mike

mterrens · Post by **mterrens** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:42 pm

It doesn't look like there's anything to do but dust it off and put it back. Is that a fair assessment?

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> Tami & Mike
> Speer
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Wednesday, September 03, 2008 11:12
> PM
> Subject:
> RE: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck
> in the middle of a tuneup
> Is there any
> maintenance that needs to be done to the
> rectifier?
> Mike
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com ]
> On Behalf Of
> goinhm@...
> Sent:
> Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:59
> PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck
> in the middle of a tuneup
> Hi Steve,
> That bundle of wires from the alternator is the 40+ amps to power the > car. Honda took the bundle of wires and held it against the car's > chassis with a metal tang. In time, the insulation will break or > shrink and you get a low resistance path to the car's ground or they would > short when the bare wires would touch (sometimes just the motion of the car > will cause the cable to jiggle and make contact). Also, if the > spade lugs get corroded, their resistance goes up and they start to > generate heat which melts the insulation. You can repair it by replacing > the connectors and wrapping it up with some electrical tape and shrink > tubing.
> good
> luck,
> Dale
> > Why did the wires
> > melt? Might the rectifier have an issue? Or maybe the connectors > > just corroded? Any maintainence to do on the rectifier other than > > clean it? What gauge wire should I use to replace the three bad > > ones? I plan to use weatherproof bullet connectors at the point where > > they meet the wires from the motor, rather than the spade-type that was > > originally there.
> It's only a deal if
> it's where
> you
> want to go. Find
> your travel deal
> here
> .
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked
> by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database:
> 270.6.15/1648 - Release Date: 9/3/2008 4:13 PM
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> Checked by AVG -
> http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1643 -
> Release Date: 8/30/2008 5:18 PM

mterrens · Post by **mterrens** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:46 pm

Dale,
OK thanks. That confirms my suspicion. I will build new cables from 12 gauge (unless autozone sells heavier) "primary wire", seal the connections with shrinkwrap, and see if things are back to as they should be.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> goinhm@...
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Wednesday, September 03, 2008 11:32
> PM
> Subject:
> Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck
> in the middle of a tuneup
> Hi Mike,
>     No maintenance is necessary for the rectifier.
> It either works or it doesn't.
> You might keep it clean, though. As a result of the current through > it, it may
> generate several watts of heat.
>      I don't think Steve is having a problem with the
> rectifier. I think he is experiencing
> intermittent shorting where one (or more) of the 3 white wires from the > alternator is
> shorting to the chassis or shorting to one of its neighboring white > wires. This causes
> the alternator to have to generate a lot of current and the motor doesn't > have enough
> hp to sustain it.   I think Steve could have disconnected his > alternator, taped off the wires from
> the alternator, and started his car and driven home. The > battery power would have been
> sufficient to keep the car running till he arrived home (especially if he > wasn't using headlights).
> Dale
> > Is there any
> > maintenance that needs to be done to the rectifier?
> > Mike
> It's only a deal if it's where
> you
> want to go. Find your travel deal
> here
> .
> Internal Virus Database is out of date.
> Checked by AVG -
> http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1643 -
> Release Date: 8/30/2008 5:18 PM

zinc2u · Post by **zinc2u** » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:35 pm

Hi Mike,
The alternator voltage is on the low side.
It will work but your battery will not be at an optimum charge
and once you turn on the lights, you will not be at full brightness. Take a look at the n600 sedan shop manual. Starting at page 2-23 is the check out of the alternator and 2-25 deals with setting the voltage level at the regulator. The alternator output voltage will increase with increasing rpm (as you have seen).
good luck,
Dale

> I briefly
> checked my alternator when I got this running and found the voltage to be > barely above battery voltage. It seemed like I had to raise the RPMs quite a > bit before it would reach 13 volts, it then dropped back down to just above > battery voltage once it was at an idle again, shouldnt this be a little > better at idle?

It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here .

Kevin Lister · Post by **Kevin Lister** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:31 am

I just want to add my limited experience on this subject.
I have noticed on my car that at idle the voltage at the battery terminal is very low. Raising the RPMS brings the output up well over 13 volts. I've read the manual on the procedure to adjust the regulator. I even experimented on my original regulator. I adjusted the voltage but what I didn't know was that the voltage was excessive at higher RPM's. This damaged the regulator, my battery, and melted my wires. So, beware!
All other cars I've ever looked at have a voltage of 13.8v on the battery terminal regardless of RPM. This is not the case for a Honda 600. I've measured mine and Miles measured one of his cars and we saw the same thing on each car. The voltage was below 13v at idle and above 13v at RPM. The reaons for this is due to the design of the alternator. It has nothing to do with the rectifier or regulator. The alternator of other cars spins real fast as it is belt driven and is not 1:1 with the engine revolutions. The alternator of the 600 is 1:1 with the engine revolutions. This simply means that at low RPM the output voltage of the alternator is going to be low.
Next time I am over at Mile's place I'll ask him if we can measure the voltage on the battery terminals of the 600's he has. I suspect that they will all behave the same: Low voltage at idle and higher at RPM.
Also, I think the manual doesn't even specifiy testing the charging system by simply placing a voltmeter on the battery terminal. There's a procedure for doing so.
Anywho, Miles gave me a regulator to put in my car. It too runs low voltage at low RPM and close to 14v at higher RPM. I've been running with it for quite awhile with absolutely no charging problems.
I'm not suggesting that you don't try to adjust your regulator. I'm just saying that if you do there is a chance you can destroy the battery, your regluator and your wires! So, be careful. If you are having trouble keeping your battery charged then your charging system needs work or you need a fresh battery. If you are not experiencing any problems with your battery then I suggest you leave it the way it is!
I think it would be interesting to get some numbers from group members. What is the voltage on your car at idle? :o)
kev

--- On
Wed, 9/3/08, goinhm@...

wrote:
From: goinhm@...
Subject: Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: stuck in the middle of a tuneup To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 10:35 PM
Hi Mike,
The alternator voltage is on the low side. It will work but your battery will not be at an optimum charge
and once you turn on the lights, you will not be at full brightness. Take a look at the n600 sedan shop manual. Starting at page 2-23 is the check out of the alternator and 2-25 deals with setting the voltage level at the regulator. The alternator output voltage will increase with increasing rpm (as you have seen).
good luck,
Dale
> I briefly checked my alternator when I got this running and found the voltage to be barely above battery voltage. It seemed like I had to raise the RPMs quite a bit before it would reach 13 volts, it then dropped back down to just above battery voltage once it was at an idle again, shouldnt this be a little better at idle?
It's only a deal if it's where
you
want to go. Find your travel deal
here
.

geez_tech · Post by **geez_tech** » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:11 pm

Thanks Kevin and Dale,
Once I get mine running again I will do some more checks, the
cylinder head is off right now. If I adjust the regulator I will
double check the voltage at high RPM's.
Maybe there is a high RPM adjustment on the regulator as that is its
function, to control voltage. My regulator cover was removed when I
bought my N600, so it may have been giving the previous owner some
trouble and I did take apart the points plates and cleaned them as
the charge light would not come on when turning on the key, this was
fixed after I cleaned the points.
Mike