points and camshafts

[mterrens]

I thought I would go through my Coupe a bit and check gaps and such.  I started with the points gap.  I set it to .35mm as it seemed a bit small, though I couldn't detect a problem while driving it.  My concern now is this: I ran the car a bit with the cover off "just to see" and noticed that the end of the camshaft floats in and out.  Please look at the video; is this excessive?  Note that I have a sedan engine in the car; maybe the tach setup at the other end would prevent the movement to some extent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJPOffE2Tbg
Thanks,
Steve

[lyletrudell]

Hi Steve, the cam shaft end play should be (.004" to .014").
Yours looks to be alot more than the max.
Probably the cam shaft has worn the holders a little, allowing more end movement. Not sure how the sedan cam holder looks.
If I remember correct the camshaft end controls movement on the tach side, not the gear. On the distibutor side the 3rd diameter (largest) controls movement.
Probably could shim the cam holders or use thinner gaskets.
See what the Honda experts say.
Hey it sounds like it's running good!
Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Steven Michelsen wrote:
> I thought I would go through my Coupe a bit and check gaps and such. I started with the points gap. I set it to .35mm as it seemed a bit small, though I couldn't detect a problem while driving it. My concern now is this: I ran the car a bit with the cover off "just to see" and noticed that the end of the camshaft floats in and out. Please look at the video; is this excessive? Note that I have a sedan engine in the car; maybe the tach setup at the other end would prevent the movement to some extent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJPOffE2Tbg
> Thanks,
> Steve

[mterrens]

Hi Bill,
Not sure which gaskets you are reffering to.
Also, as I mentioned my coupe has a sedan motor in it - no tach setup.  I took a look at everything again, and played around with some spare parts I have, to try to get a sense of how the parts interact.  After pondering all that I made a little webpage that shows what I understand of all of this so far...I will add to it as this gets worked out.
http://www.honda600coupe.com/floating_points_lobes/
Steve

[friend]

Steve;
The thickness of the gasket (thicker) will pull the cam holder away from the cam lobe closest to it.  A thinner gasket will make it closer.  Your cam seems to have to much room between the inside edge of the Cam  holder end the the cam. Leaving it room to move back and forth.
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Steven
> Michelsen
> Sent:
> Sunday, March 13, 2011 5:14 PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com;
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] Re:
> points and camshafts
> Hi Bill,
> Not sure which gaskets you are reffering
> to.  Also, as I mentioned my coupe has a sedan motor in it - no tach > setup.  I took a look at everything again, and played around with some > spare parts I have, to try to get a sense of how the parts interact.
> After pondering all that I made a little webpage that shows what I understand > of all of this so far...I will add to it as this gets worked > out.
> http://www.honda600coupe.com/floating_points_lobes/
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From:
> > billmyong@...
> > To:
> > 2cylinderhondas@Yahoogroups.
> > Com
> > ;
> > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent:
> > Sunday, March 13, 2011 6:58
> > AM
> > Subject:
> > [2cylinderhondas] RE:
> > [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and camshafts
> > Steve;
> > Lyle said it, the gasket can change the gap.
> > When I was looking for the correct width of gasket material I > > noticed that Honda made a couple of different lengths of the camshaft > > (drivers side) bearing (holder).  Causing some bearing ends to > > bind the camshaft when the gasket is to thin.  That said, I have also > > noticed that some of the shorter bearings looked as if they were filed which > > may also be warn, which applies to both ends.  I would look at the > > gasket width first and see if the tach drive gear and bolt are causing > > excessive wear on the gear/housing.  Also, that much movement can cause > > side wear on the cam chain.
> > B
> > ill
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
> > > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> > > On Behalf Of
> > > lyletrudell
> > > Sent:
> > > Saturday, March 12, 2011 2:32
> > > PM
> > > To:
> > > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject:
> > > [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and
> > > camshafts
> > > Hi Steve, the cam shaft end play should be (.004" to .014").
> > > Yours
> > > looks to be alot more than the max.
> > > Probably the cam shaft has worn the
> > > holders a little, allowing more end movement. Not sure how the sedan cam > > > holder looks.
> > > If I remember correct the camshaft end controls movement > > > on the tach side, not the gear. On the distibutor side the 3rd diameter > > > (largest) controls movement. Probably could shim the cam holders or use > > > thinner gaskets.
> > > See what the Honda experts say.
> > > Hey it sounds like
> > > it's running good!
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
> > > anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > > ,
> > > Steven Michelsen wrote:
> > > > I thought I
> > > would go through my Coupe a bit and check gaps and such. I started with > > > the points gap. I set it to .35mm as it seemed a bit small, though I > > > couldn't detect a problem while driving it. My concern now is this: I ran > > > the car a bit with the cover off "just to see" and noticed that the end of > > > the camshaft floats in and out. Please look at the video; is this > > > excessive? Note that I have a sedan engine in the car; maybe the tach > > > setup at the other end would prevent the movement to some extent.
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJPOffE2Tbg
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Steve

[lyletrudell]

Hi Steve, I just looked at my supply of engine parts. I have a Sedan head and
it's the same except for the cam holder on the drivers side.
But this doesn't matter, they both do the same thing.
I put a cam holder from my coupe with the tach drive and it bolted right up!
This is how the cam is located for end play:
*The 2 cam lobes closest to the ends of the cam shaft have a machined surface. This is a controlled distance from the factory, I measured 3 cams and they check from finished surfaces (7.473"-7.477").
*The cam holders are a combination bearing surface and they also control end play. When installed with the proper gasket thickness, the distance should be(.004"-.014") greater than the cam length. This is why the gasket thickness is so important.
Other things to look for:
* Worn or damaged cam holders.
* Damaged surface on the head that the cam holders bolt up to.
* Worn cam or surface re-machined undersize.
Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Steve;
> The thickness of the gasket (thicker) will pull the cam holder away from
> the cam lobe closest to it. A thinner gasket will make it closer. Your cam
> seems to have to much room between the inside edge of the Cam holder end
> the the cam. Leaving it room to move back and forth.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Steven Michelsen
> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 5:14 PM
> To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
;
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and camshafts
> Hi Bill,
> Not sure which gaskets you are reffering to. Also, as I mentioned my
> coupe has a sedan motor in it - no tach setup. I took a look at everything
> again, and played around with some spare parts I have, to try to get a sense
> of how the parts interact. After pondering all that I made a little webpage
> that shows what I understand of all of this so far...I will add to it as
> this gets worked out.
http://www.honda600coupe.com/floating_points_lobes/
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: billmyong@...
> To: 2cylinderhondas@Yahoogroups. Com ;
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 6:58 AM
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] RE: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and
> camshafts
> Steve;
> Lyle said it, the gasket can change the gap. When I was looking for the
> correct width of gasket material I noticed that Honda made a couple of
> different lengths of the camshaft (drivers side) bearing (holder). Causing
> some bearing ends to bind the camshaft when the gasket is to thin. That
> said, I have also noticed that some of the shorter bearings looked as if
> they were filed which may also be warn, which applies to both ends. I would
> look at the gasket width first and see if the tach drive gear and bolt are
> causing excessive wear on the gear/housing. Also, that much movement can
> cause side wear on the cam chain.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 2:32 PM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and camshafts
> Hi Steve, the cam shaft end play should be (.004" to .014").
> Yours looks to be alot more than the max.
> Probably the cam shaft has worn the holders a little, allowing more
> end movement. Not sure how the sedan cam holder looks.
> If I remember correct the camshaft end controls movement on the tach
> side, not the gear. On the distibutor side the 3rd diameter (largest)
> controls movement. Probably could shim the cam holders or use thinner
> gaskets.
> See what the Honda experts say.
> Hey it sounds like it's running good!
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Steven Michelsen
> wrote:
> > I thought I would go through my Coupe a bit and check gaps and such.
> I started with the points gap. I set it to .35mm as it seemed a bit small,
> though I couldn't detect a problem while driving it. My concern now is this:
> I ran the car a bit with the cover off "just to see" and noticed that the
> end of the camshaft floats in and out. Please look at the video; is this
> excessive? Note that I have a sedan engine in the car; maybe the tach setup
> at the other end would prevent the movement to some extent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJPOffE2Tbg
> > Thanks,
> > Steve

[lyletrudell]

Hi Steve, I just checked my cam end play, something I forgot to check.
Removed the valve cover. Turned engine to TDC, so valve spring pressure would be light.
Used a screw driver between the cam gear and housing to move the cam all the way to contact the cam housing, light pressure! Then used a feeler gauge to check the gap on the other end. Mine checked (.009)
Not sure how you checked the gap.
Also remember to torque the cam holder bolts to spec.
Thinner gaskets would solve your problem.
Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> Hi Steve, I just looked at my supply of engine parts. I have a Sedan head and
> it's the same except for the cam holder on the drivers side.
> But this doesn't matter, they both do the same thing.
> I put a cam holder from my coupe with the tach drive and it bolted right up!
> This is how the cam is located for end play:
> *The 2 cam lobes closest to the ends of the cam shaft have a machined surface. This is a controlled distance from the factory, I measured 3 cams and they check from finished surfaces (7.473"-7.477").
> *The cam holders are a combination bearing surface and they also control end play. When installed with the proper gasket thickness, the distance should be(.004"-.014") greater than the cam length. This is why the gasket thickness is so important.
> Other things to look for:
> * Worn or damaged cam holders.
> * Damaged surface on the head that the cam holders bolt up to.
> * Worn cam or surface re-machined undersize.
> Lyle
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> > Steve;
> > The thickness of the gasket (thicker) will pull the cam holder away from
> > the cam lobe closest to it. A thinner gasket will make it closer. Your cam
> > seems to have to much room between the inside edge of the Cam holder end
> > the the cam. Leaving it room to move back and forth.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Steven Michelsen
> > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 5:14 PM
> > To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
;
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and camshafts
> > Hi Bill,
> > Not sure which gaskets you are reffering to. Also, as I mentioned my
> > coupe has a sedan motor in it - no tach setup. I took a look at everything
> > again, and played around with some spare parts I have, to try to get a sense
> > of how the parts interact. After pondering all that I made a little webpage
> > that shows what I understand of all of this so far...I will add to it as
> > this gets worked out.
http://www.honda600coupe.com/floating_points_lobes/
> > Steve
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: billmyong@
> > To: 2cylinderhondas@Yahoogroups. Com ;
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 6:58 AM
> > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] RE: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and
> > camshafts
> > Steve;
> > Lyle said it, the gasket can change the gap. When I was looking for the
> > correct width of gasket material I noticed that Honda made a couple of
> > different lengths of the camshaft (drivers side) bearing (holder). Causing
> > some bearing ends to bind the camshaft when the gasket is to thin. That
> > said, I have also noticed that some of the shorter bearings looked as if
> > they were filed which may also be warn, which applies to both ends. I would
> > look at the gasket width first and see if the tach drive gear and bolt are
> > causing excessive wear on the gear/housing. Also, that much movement can
> > cause side wear on the cam chain.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 2:32 PM
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and camshafts
> > Hi Steve, the cam shaft end play should be (.004" to .014").
> > Yours looks to be alot more than the max.
> > Probably the cam shaft has worn the holders a little, allowing more
> > end movement. Not sure how the sedan cam holder looks.
> > If I remember correct the camshaft end controls movement on the tach
> > side, not the gear. On the distibutor side the 3rd diameter (largest)
> > controls movement. Probably could shim the cam holders or use thinner
> > gaskets.
> > See what the Honda experts say.
> > Hey it sounds like it's running good!
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Steven Michelsen
> > wrote:
> > > I thought I would go through my Coupe a bit and check gaps and such.
> > I started with the points gap. I set it to .35mm as it seemed a bit small,
> > though I couldn't detect a problem while driving it. My concern now is this:
> > I ran the car a bit with the cover off "just to see" and noticed that the
> > end of the camshaft floats in and out. Please look at the video; is this
> > excessive? Note that I have a sedan engine in the car; maybe the tach setup
> > at the other end would prevent the movement to some extent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJPOffE2Tbg
> > > Thanks,
> > > Steve

[Bill]

Lyle;
    I don't know about the valve  springs having much to do with the side movement of the cam shaft.  Especially with the engine at idle.  The fact that it (the cam) is moving back and forth between the two bearings leads me to believe that there is plenty of oil getting into the surfaces.  And, as the point lobes are tracking with the cam it is defiantly the cam that is moving and not just the advancer assembly.  My concern would be the seal on the cam shaft.  Movement like this will eventually cause it to leak.
    Side movement of the cam is due to play between the bearing end caps.  Use of a thinner gasket will bring them closer together.  What is the thickness of the gasket you are using now?
Bill

[lyletrudell]

Hi Bill, the gaskets I got from you worked out perfect, I ended up with (.009") right in the middle of the tolerance. Steve should check his gaskets and get a set from you.
Bill you mis-read what I wrote. I agree the valve springs have nothing to do with end play.
To check the cam end play with the engine together and the cam cover off. I turned the engine over by hand to get to TDC, only to let the cam slide easier in the cam holders. Then I used a screw driver and pushed the cam over to contact the cam holder on the tach side. Then I used a feeler gauge to check the gap between the distributor side cam holder and the cam.
Easy to do and all you need is a feeler gauge set.
Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Bill" wrote:
> Lyle;
> I don't know about the valve springs having much to do with the side
> movement of the cam shaft. Especially with the engine at idle. The fact
> that it (the cam) is moving back and forth between the two bearings leads me
> to believe that there is plenty of oil getting into the surfaces. And, as
> the point lobes are tracking with the cam it is defiantly the cam that is
> moving and not just the advancer assembly. My concern would be the seal on
> the cam shaft. Movement like this will eventually cause it to leak.
> Side movement of the cam is due to play between the bearing end caps.
> Use of a thinner gasket will bring them closer together. What is the
> thickness of the gasket you are using now?
> Bill
> _____
> From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
] On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 6:40 PM
> To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and camshafts
> Hi Steve, I just checked my cam end play, something I forgot to check.
> Removed the valve cover. Turned engine to TDC, so valve spring pressure
> would be light.
> Used a screw driver between the cam gear and housing to move the cam all the
> way to contact the cam housing, light pressure! Then used a feeler gauge to
> check the gap on the other end. Mine checked (.009)
> Not sure how you checked the gap.
> Also remember to torque the cam holder bolts to spec.
> Thinner gaskets would solve your problem.
> Lyle
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> , "lyletrudell"
> wrote:
> > Hi Steve, I just looked at my supply of engine parts. I have a Sedan head
> and
> > it's the same except for the cam holder on the drivers side.
> > But this doesn't matter, they both do the same thing.
> > I put a cam holder from my coupe with the tach drive and it bolted right
> up!
> > This is how the cam is located for end play:
> > *The 2 cam lobes closest to the ends of the cam shaft have a machined
> surface. This is a controlled distance from the factory, I measured 3 cams
> and they check from finished surfaces (7.473"-7.477").
> > *The cam holders are a combination bearing surface and they also control
> end play. When installed with the proper gasket thickness, the distance
> should be(.004"-.014") greater than the cam length. This is why the gasket
> thickness is so important.
> > Other things to look for:
> > * Worn or damaged cam holders.
> > * Damaged surface on the head that the cam holders bolt up to.
> > * Worn cam or surface re-machined undersize.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> , wrote:
> > > Steve;
> > > The thickness of the gasket (thicker) will pull the cam holder away from
> > > the cam lobe closest to it. A thinner gasket will make it closer. Your
> cam
> > > seems to have to much room between the inside edge of the Cam holder end
> > > the the cam. Leaving it room to move back and forth.
> > > Bill
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>
> > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On Behalf Of Steven Michelsen
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 5:14 PM
> > > To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> ;
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and camshafts
> > > Hi Bill,
> > > Not sure which gaskets you are reffering to. Also, as I mentioned my
> > > coupe has a sedan motor in it - no tach setup. I took a look at
> everything
> > > again, and played around with some spare parts I have, to try to get a
> sense
> > > of how the parts interact. After pondering all that I made a little
> webpage
> > > that shows what I understand of all of this so far...I will add to it as
> > > this gets worked out.
http://www.honda600coupe.com/floating_points_lobes/
> > > Steve
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: billmyong@
> > > To: 2cylinderhondas@Yahoogroups. Com ;
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 6:58 AM
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] RE: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and
> > > camshafts
> > > Steve;
> > > Lyle said it, the gasket can change the gap. When I was looking for the
> > > correct width of gasket material I noticed that Honda made a couple of
> > > different lengths of the camshaft (drivers side) bearing (holder).
> Causing
> > > some bearing ends to bind the camshaft when the gasket is to thin. That
> > > said, I have also noticed that some of the shorter bearings looked as if
> > > they were filed which may also be warn, which applies to both ends. I
> would
> > > look at the gasket width first and see if the tach drive gear and bolt
> are
> > > causing excessive wear on the gear/housing. Also, that much movement can
> > > cause side wear on the cam chain.
> > > Bill
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>
> > > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> > > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 2:32 PM
> > > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>
> > > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: points and camshafts
> > > Hi Steve, the cam shaft end play should be (.004" to .014").
> > > Yours looks to be alot more than the max.
> > > Probably the cam shaft has worn the holders a little, allowing more
> > > end movement. Not sure how the sedan cam holder looks.
> > > If I remember correct the camshaft end controls movement on the tach
> > > side, not the gear. On the distibutor side the 3rd diameter (largest)
> > > controls movement. Probably could shim the cam holders or use thinner
> > > gaskets.
> > > See what the Honda experts say.
> > > Hey it sounds like it's running good!
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , Steven Michelsen
> > > wrote:
> > > > I thought I would go through my Coupe a bit and check gaps and such.
> > > I started with the points gap. I set it to .35mm as it seemed a bit
> small,
> > > though I couldn't detect a problem while driving it. My concern now is
> this:
> > > I ran the car a bit with the cover off "just to see" and noticed that
> the
> > > end of the camshaft floats in and out. Please look at the video; is this
> > > excessive? Note that I have a sedan engine in the car; maybe the tach
> setup
> > > at the other end would prevent the movement to some extent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJPOffE2Tbg
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Steve