Rocker arm shaft repair

lyletrudell · Post by **lyletrudell** » Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:49 pm

Rocker arm shafts worn!
Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard.
The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
*Valve ends
*Rocker arms
*Cam shaft
*Rocker shafts
So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
Why am I doing this?
Lyle

Marshall · Post by **Marshall** » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:54 pm

Lyle, Keep this valuable input coming........ Many of us have extensive mechanical experience....... none of us can ever arrive at that point where we feel we understand sufficient !
P.S. My ongoing crankpin problem should be solved by using "Silver Steel" as sleeve material...... Dont know how the material is known in The US.
Marshall.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> Rocker arm shafts worn!
> Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
> I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
> Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard.
> The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> *Valve ends
> *Rocker arms
> *Cam shaft
> *Rocker shafts
> So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> Why am I doing this?
> Lyle

Marshall · Post by **Marshall** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:26 am

Although I have pondered on this wear problem for as long as I have had N600's, I have considered making caps to top the valve stem's.................... yet to go ahead with the idea !

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> Rocker arm shafts worn!
> Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
> I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
> Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard.
> The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> *Valve ends
> *Rocker arms
> *Cam shaft
> *Rocker shafts
> So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> Why am I doing this?
> Lyle

friend · Post by **friend** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:41 am

Marshall;
Crank pin problem?
Is this the pin that hold each bearing race in place on the crank shaft?
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Marshall
> Sent:
> Saturday, July 10, 2010 11:54 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] Re:
> Rocker arm shaft repair
> Lyle, Keep this valuable input coming........ Many of us have extensive > mechanical experience....... none of us can ever arrive at that point where we > feel we understand sufficient !
> P.S. My ongoing crankpin problem should
> be solved by using "Silver Steel" as sleeve material...... Dont know how the > material is known in The US.
> Marshall.
> --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Rocker arm shafts
> worn!
> > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > As
> you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good > or hopefully better than stock.
> > I have worked on many engines over the
> years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on > mechanical things.....Fun!
> > By seeing lots of engines apart you can
> start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor > designs and weak points.
> > After seeing this engine apart and measuring
> everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a > cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance > and we have an engine that won't last.
> > Luckily we have other
> members who have dealt with these issues.
> > I was reading past posts
> from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on > top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the > valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > One good thing is that the
> cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda > must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very > hard.
> > The problem with this type valve design is we run out
> of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up > fast!
> > *Valve ends
> > *Rocker arms
> > *Cam shaft
> *Rocker shafts
> > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > I
> don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then > re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > Why am I doing
> this?
> > Lyle

friend · Post by **friend** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:26 am

Lash caps work, I have used them on reground cam shafts with great success.
They put back the material removed allowing the rocker arm eccentric to make the necessary adjustment. The first question is "How do you know what size to use?" I put the valve train assembly together and measure with a feeler gauge while each of the rocker arm shafts are in the open or High side giving the most room between the cam and the rocker arm. Then measure the thickness of the valve end of each rocker arm and grinding to make them all even. This will give you a reference to base the size (thickness) of the lash cap. Place over the valve stem, reassemble the valve train and check for fit and adjustment.
Lash caps allow oil under and on top of the cap, which seemed to make the valves much quieter.
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Marshall
> Sent:
> Sunday, July 11, 2010 12:25 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] Re:
> Rocker arm shaft repair
> Although I have pondered on this wear problem for as long as I have had > N600's, I have considered making caps to top the valve > stem's.................... yet to go ahead with the idea !
> --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Rocker arm shafts
> worn!
> > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > As
> you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good > or hopefully better than stock.
> > I have worked on many engines over the
> years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on > mechanical things.....Fun!
> > By seeing lots of engines apart you can
> start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor > designs and weak points.
> > After seeing this engine apart and measuring
> everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a > cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance > and we have an engine that won't last.
> > Luckily we have other
> members who have dealt with these issues.
> > I was reading past posts
> from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on > top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the > valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > One good thing is that the
> cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda > must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very > hard.
> > The problem with this type valve design is we run out
> of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up > fast!
> > *Valve ends
> > *Rocker arms
> > *Cam shaft
> *Rocker shafts
> > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > I
> don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then > re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > Why am I doing
> this?
> > Lyle

Marshall · Post by **Marshall** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:47 am

Hi Bill, Big end Failure on one of the con. rods belonging to an automatic N600 engine I have obtained. It was a complete unit minus barrel & head..... two con rods sticking out with one of them obviously having a severly damaged big end.
Complete strip down of the engine showed all rollers having disintigrated & disappeared from the big end in question.... tons of rubbish in the base of the engine.
The engine overall, I am surprised to say is in good condition except for this & is certainly worth working on to bring back to life.
Marshall.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Marshall;
> Crank pin problem?
> Is this the pin that hold each bearing race in place on the crank shaft?
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Marshall
> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 11:54 PM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Rocker arm shaft repair
> Lyle, Keep this valuable input coming........ Many of us have extensive
> mechanical experience....... none of us can ever arrive at that point where
> we feel we understand sufficient !
> P.S. My ongoing crankpin problem should be solved by using "Silver Steel"
> as sleeve material...... Dont know how the material is known in The US.
> Marshall.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell"
> wrote:
> > Rocker arm shafts worn!
> > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be
> as good or hopefully better than stock.
> > I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an
> expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> > By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all
> engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> > After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would
> consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now
> add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine
> that won't last.
> > Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> > I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas.
> Thanks guys!
> > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top.
> Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve
> spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only
> (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content
> in their aluminum, this makes it very hard.
> > The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as
> the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> > *Valve ends
> > *Rocker arms
> > *Cam shaft
> > *Rocker shafts
> > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and
> then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > Why am I doing this?
> > Lyle

Marshall · Post by **Marshall** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:29 am

Bill, What contact face diameter did you have on the caps ?

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Lash caps work, I have used them on reground cam shafts with great success.
> They put back the material removed allowing the rocker arm eccentric to
> make the necessary adjustment. The first question is "How do you know what
> size to use?" I put the valve train assembly together and measure with a
> feeler gauge while each of the rocker arm shafts are in the open or High
> side giving the most room between the cam and the rocker arm. Then measure
> the thickness of the valve end of each rocker arm and grinding to make them
> all even. This will give you a reference to base the size (thickness) of
> the lash cap. Place over the valve stem, reassemble the valve train and
> check for fit and adjustment.
> Lash caps allow oil under and on top of the cap, which seemed to make the
> valves much quieter.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Marshall
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 12:25 AM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Rocker arm shaft repair
> Although I have pondered on this wear problem for as long as I have had
> N600's, I have considered making caps to top the valve
> stem's.................... yet to go ahead with the idea !
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell"
> wrote:
> > Rocker arm shafts worn!
> > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be
> as good or hopefully better than stock.
> > I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an
> expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> > By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all
> engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> > After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would
> consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now
> add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine
> that won't last.
> > Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> > I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas.
> Thanks guys!
> > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top.
> Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve
> spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only
> (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content
> in their aluminum, this makes it very hard.
> > The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as
> the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> > *Valve ends
> > *Rocker arms
> > *Cam shaft
> > *Rocker shafts
> > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and
> then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > Why am I doing this?
> > Lyle

friend · Post by **friend** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:08 pm

Marshall;
From what I remember when I used them before the machine shop used Ford 289 lash caps. And they are no longer open so I can't tell you what other modifications were made. However this site might offer some help.
http://www.jegs.com/c/Cams-Valvetrain_V ... 9/10002/-1
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Marshall
> Sent:
> Sunday, July 11, 2010 2:27 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] Re:
> Rocker arm shaft repair
> Bill, What contact face diameter did you have on the caps ?
> --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> wrote:
> > Lash caps work, I have used them
> on reground cam shafts with great success.
> > They put back the material
> removed allowing the rocker arm eccentric to
> > make the necessary
> adjustment. The first question is "How do you know what
> > size to use?"
> I put the valve train assembly together and measure with a > > feeler > gauge while each of the rocker arm shafts are in the open or High > > side > giving the most room between the cam and the rocker arm. Then measure
> the thickness of the valve end of each rocker arm and grinding to make > them > > all even. This will give you a reference to base the size > (thickness) of > > the lash cap. Place over the valve stem, reassemble the > valve train and > > check for fit and adjustment.
> > Lash
> caps allow oil under and on top of the cap, which seemed to make the
> valves much quieter.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of Marshall
> > Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 12:25 AM
> > To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Rocker arm shaft repair
> > Although I have pondered on this wear problem for as long as > I have had > > N600's, I have considered making caps to top the > valve > > stem's.................... yet to go ahead with the idea > !
> > --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> "lyletrudell"
> > wrote:
> Rocker arm shafts worn!
> > > Wow, fix one thing and find something
> else to fix!
> > > As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild
> my 600 engine to be
> > as good or hopefully better than stock.
> > I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be > an > > expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical > things.....Fun!
> > > By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to
> understand how all
> > engines work, but they all have differences, poor
> designs and weak points.
> > > After seeing this engine apart and
> measuring everything, I would
> > consider this engine a 50K mile motor at
> best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now
> > add high RPM's, high temperatures
> and poor maintenance and we have an engine
> > that won't last.
> > > Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these > issues.
> > > I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn
> about problem areas.
> > Thanks guys!
> > > I have 8
> rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top.
> > Both
> small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve
> spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > > One good thing is that the
> cam housing bores are in great shape!Only
> > (.001") wear max on the
> bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content
> > in their aluminum,
> this makes it very hard.
> > > The problem with this type
> valve design is we run out of adjustment as
> > the parts wear! (.002")
> wear on each part adds up fast!
> > > *Valve ends
> > > *Rocker
> arms
> > > *Cam shaft
> > > *Rocker shafts
> > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > > I don't want to have to
> nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and
> > then re-grind them back
> to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > > Why am I doing this?
> > Lyle

blake neilson · Post by **blake neilson** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:12 am

Silver steel? never heard of it. Can you tell us more about it?

--- On
Sat, 7/10/10, Marshall

wrote:
> From: Marshall
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Rocker arm shaft repair
> To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, July 10, 2010, 11:54 PM
> Lyle, Keep this valuable input coming........ Many of us have extensive mechanical experience....... none of us can ever arrive at that point where we feel we understand sufficient !
> P.S. My ongoing crankpin problem should be solved by using "Silver Steel" as sleeve material...... Dont know how the material is known in The US.
> Marshall.
> --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Rocker arm shafts worn!
> > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
> > I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> > By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> > After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
> > Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> > I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard.
> > The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> > *Valve ends
> > *Rocker arms
> > *Cam shaft
> > *Rocker shafts
> > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > Why am I doing this?
> > Lyle

lyletrudell · Post by **lyletrudell** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:41 pm

I bought 6.5mm lash caps to solve our valve adjustment issue, see lash caps post.
Now I want to figure out how to repair the worn rocker shafts.
My plan:
*Have the large and small diameters ground (.005") undersize. In a cyclindrical grinder between centers.
*Then chrome plate them (.006").
*Then finish grind and buff them back to (+.0005") above stock size.
I don't know of anyone with a cylindrical grinder.
Any thoughts, been done before?
Lyle

> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:

Rocker arm shafts worn!
Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard. The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
*Valve ends
*Rocker arms
*Cam shaft
*Rocker shafts
So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
Why am I doing this?
Lyle