I notice that there are various n/z 600 engine gaskets on sale on ebay. They are going for about $20 each. My question is, is it possible to cut out one's own gaskets, assuming they are the right shape and the right material? What material is used for the cylinder and cam gaskets? Can it be bought in sheet form?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... X-XXX-XXXX
I am thinking that someone in the group owns these gaskets, or at least has an old one out of their car, can trace it on paper, scan it with a scale of some sort for size accuracy, and post it. Then other members can use it as a template for thier own "new" gaskets.
Is this possible? Has it been done already? If someone out there can do the tracing but not the scanning, I volunteer...
Steve
www.honda600coupe.com
aternative to NOS gaskets?
Re: aternative to NOS gaskets?
On a tangent - it's a bit more pricey, but you can have the gaskets cut from copper also. These can be reused a few times.
(We had to go this route for the 700cc Bonneville engine.)
Some of the suppliers have sold gasket sets that are everything but the head gasket in a sheat form, you just cut them out yourself.
Remember - the head gasket has a copper ring around the cylinders.
If there is lots of interest I can look into how much copper ones would be in quantity.
-Eric
(We had to go this route for the 700cc Bonneville engine.)
Some of the suppliers have sold gasket sets that are everything but the head gasket in a sheat form, you just cut them out yourself.
Remember - the head gasket has a copper ring around the cylinders.
If there is lots of interest I can look into how much copper ones would be in quantity.
-Eric
--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Steven Michelsen wrote:
> I notice that there are various n/z 600 engine gaskets on sale on ebay. They are going for about $20 each. My question is, is it possible to cut out one's own gaskets, assuming they are the right shape and the right material? What material is used for the cylinder and cam gaskets? Can it be bought in sheet form?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... X-XXX-XXXX
> I am thinking that someone in the group owns these gaskets, or at least has an old one out of their car, can trace it on paper, scan it with a scale of some sort for size accuracy, and post it. Then other members can use it as a template for thier own "new" gaskets.
> Is this possible? Has it been done already? If someone out there can do the tracing but not the scanning, I volunteer...
> Steve
> www.honda600coupe.com
Re: aternative to NOS gaskets?
I priced out Gasket Dies in the past, they are called Steel Rule
Dies. A full set of dies costs $1500.oo. From the dies inexpensive
gaskets can be cut. The trick on the gasket material is it must be
high temp paper, not the paper you can get at any parts store. I use
Klinger-Sil Carbon-fibre blend. It is very expensive but is rated at
over 600 degrees. It is black in color and I can only buy it in 5'
square sheets, the last sheet was $125.00 + shipping and I have been
selling it on an as needed basis at cost
Back when I was writing Novelty News I made the tracings of the
gaskets on paper and distributed them with the newsletters. Bill
Colford distributess head gaskets which are made here in California
from a same type steel die. The cost for that individual die was
expensive, but the head gaskets are top notch and include the *Fire
Ring*.
Miles
Dies. A full set of dies costs $1500.oo. From the dies inexpensive
gaskets can be cut. The trick on the gasket material is it must be
high temp paper, not the paper you can get at any parts store. I use
Klinger-Sil Carbon-fibre blend. It is very expensive but is rated at
over 600 degrees. It is black in color and I can only buy it in 5'
square sheets, the last sheet was $125.00 + shipping and I have been
selling it on an as needed basis at cost
Back when I was writing Novelty News I made the tracings of the
gaskets on paper and distributed them with the newsletters. Bill
Colford distributess head gaskets which are made here in California
from a same type steel die. The cost for that individual die was
expensive, but the head gaskets are top notch and include the *Fire
Ring*.
Miles
Steel Rule Dies (was Re: aternative to NOS gaskets?)
So what did a full set of gaskets cost a while back? Curious what it would be today adjusted for inflation . . . then how many you'd have to sell at what price to cover the cost of the dies and materials.
--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Miles" wrote:
> I priced out Gasket Dies in the past, they are called Steel Rule
> Dies. A full set of dies costs $1500.oo. From the dies inexpensive
> gaskets can be cut. The trick on the gasket material is it must be
> high temp paper, not the paper you can get at any parts store. I use
> Klinger-Sil Carbon-fibre blend. It is very expensive but is rated at
> over 600 degrees. It is black in color and I can only buy it in 5'
> square sheets, the last sheet was $125.00 + shipping and I have been
> selling it on an as needed basis at cost
> Back when I was writing Novelty News I made the tracings of the
> gaskets on paper and distributed them with the newsletters. Bill
> Colford distributess head gaskets which are made here in California
> from a same type steel die. The cost for that individual die was
> expensive, but the head gaskets are top notch and include the *Fire
> Ring*.
> Miles
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Steven Michelsen
> wrote:
> > I notice that there are various n/z 600 engine gaskets on sale on
> ebay. They are going for about $20 each. My question is, is it
> possible to cut out one's own gaskets, assuming they are the right
> shape and the right material? What material is used for the cylinder
> and cam gaskets? Can it be bought in sheet form?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&item=XXX-XXX-XXXX
> > I am thinking that someone in the group owns these gaskets, or at
> least has an old one out of their car, can trace it on paper, scan it
> with a scale of some sort for size accuracy, and post it. Then other
> members can use it as a template for thier own "new" gaskets.
> > Is this possible? Has it been done already? If someone out there
> can do the tracing but not the scanning, I volunteer...
> > Steve
> > www.honda600coupe.com
Steel Rule Dies (was Re: aternative to NOS gaskets?)
I used to buy gaskets packaged by Lazorlite made by Honda except the
rubber cam box seal was not orig. Honda. I paid $22.00 for the set
and it was most everything you needed. As I recall a gasket set from
Honda was $75.00 but a couple years ago full set sold on eBay for
like $450.00 or maybe it was $350.oo but it was a bunch of money! The
part numbers for gasket sets were never listed in our paper parts
catalogs and there were 3 different top end sets and maybe only 1
bottom end set which included all seals & gaskets for the bottom end.
The 3 different top end sets: 1 for coupes, 1 for early sedans which
had 4 individual exhaust gaskets and one later set which had the 3
flat exhaust gaskets.
Miles
rubber cam box seal was not orig. Honda. I paid $22.00 for the set
and it was most everything you needed. As I recall a gasket set from
Honda was $75.00 but a couple years ago full set sold on eBay for
like $450.00 or maybe it was $350.oo but it was a bunch of money! The
part numbers for gasket sets were never listed in our paper parts
catalogs and there were 3 different top end sets and maybe only 1
bottom end set which included all seals & gaskets for the bottom end.
The 3 different top end sets: 1 for coupes, 1 for early sedans which
had 4 individual exhaust gaskets and one later set which had the 3
flat exhaust gaskets.
Miles
-
dealadayray
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 12:08 am
Re: Steel Rule Dies (was Re: alternative to NOS gaskets?)
Hi Group;
Since I was brought in by way of a head gasket I am having made for my
restorations, I too like Miles am using a Steam fitting type gasket for the
other casings and the Cam base and bottom of the cylinder. In fact some time
ago Miles pointed me to that direction. The material has a Nitrile binder
with a synthetic fiber material. Which has excellent solvent resistance
unless you are using a Ketone substance, reacts good with diluted or
concentrated acid resistance and resists good to excellent to Oil, Gas,
Animal and Vegetable oil, water absorption Oxidation heat and cold. Not
very good against flame and silicone based RTV will cause it to break-up.
So here is a gasket material that is a rubber based material with a tensile
strength of 2000 psi. I silk screen the gaskets onto the front of the
gasket material and cut them when I need a gasket. If you use a RTV
silicone based sealer on the gasket it will fail. I use a copper tack
adhesive which helps hold the gasket in place while bolting everything up.
The price of the gasket material because of it's rubber based products goes
up and down with the price of oil.
Using a copying machine to make patterns of the gaskets is ok for the first
two maybe three generations but even then it is getting small. Because even
with the copier set at 100% it is reduced .9, but it is still reduced. I
had the gaskets photographed and then silk screen them onto the gasket
material. Not cheap, but not $1500.00 to make the cutters and that does not
count the press to stamp them out. Another way is lazar cut, but the
program does not exist and making a computer program to run the lazar
machine to cut one set of gaskets is cost prohibitive.
All the motors I have put together using this material did not leak. Also,
I use the 1/64th thick gasket material which allows the cam box to give back
some of the wear causing your rocker arms not to adjust in anymore.
And, because we are talking about leaks....
But leaks can happen for many reasons, most common are the cases being
warped, all the old gasket material is not removed, the bolts not being
torque or over torqued and threads being stripped. Loctite is a brand name
and is only good if the correct torque is achieved. I have read some very
interesting suggestions about both Red and Blue, but it applied to the use
of this very interesting stuff back in he 70's. I use Green #290
Threadlocker.
Now this is a quote form Carroll Smith's book - Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners
and Plumbing Handbook, Carroll Smith is both an Engineer and race car
constructor. He writes - "Threadlocker #290 (Green). Believe it or not,
this is a penetrating compound that locks already assembled threaded
fasteners. I first ran into it under the name of Loctite Super Wick-in in
Australia. The fluid is drawn into assembled and torqued threads by
capillary action and cures to a medium strength similar to that of #242
(Blue Loctite). Like all of the Loctite compounds, #290 does not like oil
or grease, so I spray the assembly to be treated with Loctite Primer N,
Brake Clean or some similar aerosol cleaner before I apply the magic. Since
I end up running a lot of cars that have been assembled by folks I don't
know, I find Loctite #290 to be a great comfort. Porosity Sealant #290
(green) Same Stuff-we just didn't know it. In addition to locking threads,
#290 will wick itself into any porous metal (including both ferrous and
nonferrous castings and welds) and cures to form a tough, elastic and
pressure-resistant seal that is resistant to fuels, lubes and solvents. It
brushes on and the excess cleans off with a rag. I use it as a matter of
course on the weld seams of all tanks, reservoirs and hard lines."
So all the bull about Green Loctite being to strong for the bolts in your
Honda 600 is just that "Bull".
But we also mentioned the bolts being torqued. And, after retorquing all
your bolts into the aluminum cases your bound to have threads that need
rethreading. I use two, Helicoil's and Tridair's Keensert. The helicoil is
easy to come by, but if the spark plug hole spits out a plug, the only thing
that will fix and seal the opening is a Keensert with a seal on top. Most
VW shops have the capability of doing this job very well.
So it takes three things to have a leak free engine, 1. Good straight
surfaces and castings. 2. well fitting gaskets. and 3. bolts that will
torque to spec and an substance that will Hold them there. Caues, that
Honda 600 engine will shake your teeth out given the chance.
Bill
Since I was brought in by way of a head gasket I am having made for my
restorations, I too like Miles am using a Steam fitting type gasket for the
other casings and the Cam base and bottom of the cylinder. In fact some time
ago Miles pointed me to that direction. The material has a Nitrile binder
with a synthetic fiber material. Which has excellent solvent resistance
unless you are using a Ketone substance, reacts good with diluted or
concentrated acid resistance and resists good to excellent to Oil, Gas,
Animal and Vegetable oil, water absorption Oxidation heat and cold. Not
very good against flame and silicone based RTV will cause it to break-up.
So here is a gasket material that is a rubber based material with a tensile
strength of 2000 psi. I silk screen the gaskets onto the front of the
gasket material and cut them when I need a gasket. If you use a RTV
silicone based sealer on the gasket it will fail. I use a copper tack
adhesive which helps hold the gasket in place while bolting everything up.
The price of the gasket material because of it's rubber based products goes
up and down with the price of oil.
Using a copying machine to make patterns of the gaskets is ok for the first
two maybe three generations but even then it is getting small. Because even
with the copier set at 100% it is reduced .9, but it is still reduced. I
had the gaskets photographed and then silk screen them onto the gasket
material. Not cheap, but not $1500.00 to make the cutters and that does not
count the press to stamp them out. Another way is lazar cut, but the
program does not exist and making a computer program to run the lazar
machine to cut one set of gaskets is cost prohibitive.
All the motors I have put together using this material did not leak. Also,
I use the 1/64th thick gasket material which allows the cam box to give back
some of the wear causing your rocker arms not to adjust in anymore.
And, because we are talking about leaks....
But leaks can happen for many reasons, most common are the cases being
warped, all the old gasket material is not removed, the bolts not being
torque or over torqued and threads being stripped. Loctite is a brand name
and is only good if the correct torque is achieved. I have read some very
interesting suggestions about both Red and Blue, but it applied to the use
of this very interesting stuff back in he 70's. I use Green #290
Threadlocker.
Now this is a quote form Carroll Smith's book - Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners
and Plumbing Handbook, Carroll Smith is both an Engineer and race car
constructor. He writes - "Threadlocker #290 (Green). Believe it or not,
this is a penetrating compound that locks already assembled threaded
fasteners. I first ran into it under the name of Loctite Super Wick-in in
Australia. The fluid is drawn into assembled and torqued threads by
capillary action and cures to a medium strength similar to that of #242
(Blue Loctite). Like all of the Loctite compounds, #290 does not like oil
or grease, so I spray the assembly to be treated with Loctite Primer N,
Brake Clean or some similar aerosol cleaner before I apply the magic. Since
I end up running a lot of cars that have been assembled by folks I don't
know, I find Loctite #290 to be a great comfort. Porosity Sealant #290
(green) Same Stuff-we just didn't know it. In addition to locking threads,
#290 will wick itself into any porous metal (including both ferrous and
nonferrous castings and welds) and cures to form a tough, elastic and
pressure-resistant seal that is resistant to fuels, lubes and solvents. It
brushes on and the excess cleans off with a rag. I use it as a matter of
course on the weld seams of all tanks, reservoirs and hard lines."
So all the bull about Green Loctite being to strong for the bolts in your
Honda 600 is just that "Bull".
But we also mentioned the bolts being torqued. And, after retorquing all
your bolts into the aluminum cases your bound to have threads that need
rethreading. I use two, Helicoil's and Tridair's Keensert. The helicoil is
easy to come by, but if the spark plug hole spits out a plug, the only thing
that will fix and seal the opening is a Keensert with a seal on top. Most
VW shops have the capability of doing this job very well.
So it takes three things to have a leak free engine, 1. Good straight
surfaces and castings. 2. well fitting gaskets. and 3. bolts that will
torque to spec and an substance that will Hold them there. Caues, that
Honda 600 engine will shake your teeth out given the chance.
Bill