Cam grind specs?

lyletrudell · Post by **lyletrudell** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:39 pm

Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock and Hawaiian cam?
I want to build one stock and one slightly hotter engine.
This would also be good info for degreeing the cam.
Thanks
Lyle

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:13 pm

Or what's the N360 japan spec ?
From: lyletrudell
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:38 PM
To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Cam grind specs?
Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock and Hawaiian cam?
I want to build one stock and one slightly hotter engine.
This would also be good info for degreeing the cam.
Thanks Lyle ___,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic
[The entire original message is not included]

friend · Post by **friend** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:42 am

Hi Lyle;
Yes, it is in the Sedan shop manual. First section.
Bill

lyletrudell · Post by **lyletrudell** » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:39 pm

Bill, I don't have a sedan shop manual.
Can you scan it?
Or send me a copy with the window seals I ordered from you.
Are these numbers like a cam grind sheet?
Like Duration, lift, intake open 0 degree's BTDC at 1mm lift?
I want to buy a hotter cam or get one of my cams ground and then degree the cam.
Thanks
Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Hi Lyle;
> Yes, it is in the Sedan shop manual. First section.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:38 PM
> To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Cam grind specs?
> Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock and Hawaiian cam?
> I want to build one stock and one slightly hotter engine.
> This would also be good info for degreeing the cam.
> Thanks
> Lyle
> �l

jpro8071 · Post by **jpro8071** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:42 am

Page 4-1 of the blue manual "Honda 360/400/600 Sedan & Van" shows the following for the 600:
Valve timing (at 1mm, 0.039in. cam lift)
1969 1970
Inlet valve open btdc 0 5
Inlet valve close abdc 40 20
Intake Duration (calc) 220 205
Exhaust valve open bbdc 40 40
Exhaust valve close atdc 0 10
Exhaust Duration (calc) 220 230
Overlap (calc) 0 15
("calc" entries made using http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html )
I don't think there is any difference in lift, since page 4-25 step 4 does not differentiate for the two cams for lobe height. Note that all of this is from the manual - I haven't checked the numbers myself.
Besides differences in duration, pay attention to overlap . . .
I've got a spreadsheet somewhere of other race cam specs, will try to dig it up.

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> Bill, I don't have a sedan shop manual.
> Can you scan it?
> Or send me a copy with the window seals I ordered from you.
> Are these numbers like a cam grind sheet?
> Like Duration, lift, intake open 0 degree's BTDC at 1mm lift?
> I want to buy a hotter cam or get one of my cams ground and then degree the cam.
> Thanks
> Lyle
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> > Hi Lyle;
> > Yes, it is in the Sedan shop manual. First section.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:38 PM
> > To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Cam grind specs?
> > Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock and Hawaiian cam?
> > I want to build one stock and one slightly hotter engine.
> > This would also be good info for degreeing the cam.
> > Thanks
> > Lyle
> > �l

lyletrudell · Post by **lyletrudell** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:45 am

Thanks Jpro, I couldn't find it in the coupe or haines manual.
Your race background will be helpful in designing a good hot street cam.
Not sure if the Hawaiian cam is our best cam design or not.
It sounds like it moves the power band up in rpm.
Not sure what it does for low end torque.
I have a great cam grind shop just south of me. He has ground cams for me in the past. Dave is the owner, nice guy and quality work.
http://www.camtechniques.com/
I emailed him about the Honda cam yesterday.
I will look at my notes on cam design and see what I can find.
Cam design is a balancing game between high rpm power and drivability. I want my coupe to be a little better than stock.
Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jpro8071" wrote:
> Page 4-1 of the blue manual "Honda 360/400/600 Sedan & Van" shows the following for the 600:
> Valve timing (at 1mm, 0.039in. cam lift)
> 1969 1970
> Inlet valve open btdc 0 5
> Inlet valve close abdc 40 20
> Intake Duration (calc) 220 205
> Exhaust valve open bbdc 40 40
> Exhaust valve close atdc 0 10
> Exhaust Duration (calc) 220 230
> Overlap (calc) 0 15
> ("calc" entries made using
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html
)
> I don't think there is any difference in lift, since page 4-25 step 4 does not differentiate for the two cams for lobe height. Note that all of this is from the manual - I haven't checked the numbers myself.
> Besides differences in duration, pay attention to overlap . . .
> I've got a spreadsheet somewhere of other race cam specs, will try to dig it up.
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Bill, I don't have a sedan shop manual.
> > Can you scan it?
> > Or send me a copy with the window seals I ordered from you.
> > Are these numbers like a cam grind sheet?
> > Like Duration, lift, intake open 0 degree's BTDC at 1mm lift?
> > I want to buy a hotter cam or get one of my cams ground and then degree the cam.
> > Thanks
> > Lyle
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> > > Hi Lyle;
> > > Yes, it is in the Sedan shop manual. First section.
> > > Bill
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:38 PM
> > > To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Cam grind specs?
> > > Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock and Hawaiian cam?
> > > I want to build one stock and one slightly hotter engine.
> > > This would also be good info for degreeing the cam.
> > > Thanks
> > > Lyle
> > > �l

jpro8071 · Post by **jpro8071** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:00 pm

Just keep in mind my "racing experience" with these cars is wide-open throttle only - seeking peak power. We use the bottom end for at most 10 seconds . . . after that I don't think we ever drop below 3 or 4k rpm. (Although our current setup is pretty streetable at elevation with 110 octane.)
I've got 3 different racing cams kicking around, and might have a Hawaii one also. Have been wanting to compare them . . . just wish I wasn't so busy/buried. Between them and the water brake dyno I'm sure a lot of data could be figured out.
I'll never forget the first time we raced - 600cc with stock compression, open exhaust, mild racing cam, larger valves, electronic ignition and a larger carb.
1.5 miles at 82mph . . . the car would go no faster. (Remember - 4200' elevation, 6000+ DA at times.) In other cars you either run out of road or run out of b@!!s (courage) before they top out. Interesting experience to have the pedal buried and go no faster.
Once we hit 700cc and the better compression the car always picks up speed the entire 3 miles.

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> Thanks Jpro, I couldn't find it in the coupe or haines manual.
> Your race background will be helpful in designing a good hot street cam.
> Not sure if the Hawaiian cam is our best cam design or not.
> It sounds like it moves the power band up in rpm.
> Not sure what it does for low end torque.
> I have a great cam grind shop just south of me. He has ground cams for me in the past. Dave is the owner, nice guy and quality work.
http://www.camtechniques.com/
> I emailed him about the Honda cam yesterday.
> I will look at my notes on cam design and see what I can find.
> Cam design is a balancing game between high rpm power and drivability. I want my coupe to be a little better than stock.
> Lyle
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jpro8071" wrote:
> > Page 4-1 of the blue manual "Honda 360/400/600 Sedan & Van" shows the following for the 600:
> > Valve timing (at 1mm, 0.039in. cam lift)
> > 1969 1970
> > Inlet valve open btdc 0 5
> > Inlet valve close abdc 40 20
> > Intake Duration (calc) 220 205
> > Exhaust valve open bbdc 40 40
> > Exhaust valve close atdc 0 10
> > Exhaust Duration (calc) 220 230
> > Overlap (calc) 0 15
> > ("calc" entries made using
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html
)
> > I don't think there is any difference in lift, since page 4-25 step 4 does not differentiate for the two cams for lobe height. Note that all of this is from the manual - I haven't checked the numbers myself.
> > Besides differences in duration, pay attention to overlap . . .
> > I've got a spreadsheet somewhere of other race cam specs, will try to dig it up.
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Bill, I don't have a sedan shop manual.
> > > Can you scan it?
> > > Or send me a copy with the window seals I ordered from you.
> > > Are these numbers like a cam grind sheet?
> > > Like Duration, lift, intake open 0 degree's BTDC at 1mm lift?
> > > I want to buy a hotter cam or get one of my cams ground and then degree the cam.
> > > Thanks
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> > > > Hi Lyle;
> > > > Yes, it is in the Sedan shop manual. First section.
> > > > Bill
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > > [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:38 PM
> > > > To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Cam grind specs?
> > > > Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock and Hawaiian cam?
> > > > I want to build one stock and one slightly hotter engine.
> > > > This would also be good info for degreeing the cam.
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Lyle
> > > > �l

lyletrudell · Post by **lyletrudell** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:48 pm

I agree, your race cam info is no good for us.
But, your first race car specs could be useful.
I race enduro Go-Karts, 45 minute race, they weigh under 400lbs with the driver, 18-20HP at 14K rpms, no transmission just one gear allowed. So I know about hitting a wall of air!
We can run 110-112mph at the big tracks, but you hit a spot where it won't go any faster, then you fall asleep until the first infeild turn comes up.
I build my engines to be at the very edge of sticking.
Nothing is heavy duty, weight and rotating mass has to be as low as possible.
We have the same issues you have to fight.
But, no salt for us! What a mess!
Lets say your Honda weighs 1,100 lbs with driver and you put out 80HP.
1hp/13.75lbs not bad numbers, power to weight is the key!
Frontal area and drag numbers should be good also.
Skinny tires, toe-in/camber perfect, tie rod ends, brakes modified to not drag, modified bearings, axles and gears.....
You have done real well with the package you have and it still is kindof drivable.
The next step for you is to make it a non driver, every component lighter/weaker. Maybe good for only a dozen runs, but it will go faster!
Back to the cam, as you know the cam is only a small part of the puzzle. You have the perfect tool, a dyno!
Look forward to any info you can give, for us street guys!
Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jpro8071" wrote:
> Just keep in mind my "racing experience" with these cars is wide-open throttle only - seeking peak power. We use the bottom end for at most 10 seconds . . . after that I don't think we ever drop below 3 or 4k rpm. (Although our current setup is pretty streetable at elevation with 110 octane.)
> I've got 3 different racing cams kicking around, and might have a Hawaii one also. Have been wanting to compare them . . . just wish I wasn't so busy/buried. Between them and the water brake dyno I'm sure a lot of data could be figured out.
> I'll never forget the first time we raced - 600cc with stock compression, open exhaust, mild racing cam, larger valves, electronic ignition and a larger carb.
> 1.5 miles at 82mph . . . the car would go no faster. (Remember - 4200' elevation, 6000+ DA at times.) In other cars you either run out of road or run out of b@!!s (courage) before they top out. Interesting experience to have the pedal buried and go no faster.
> Once we hit 700cc and the better compression the car always picks up speed the entire 3 miles.
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Thanks Jpro, I couldn't find it in the coupe or haines manual.
> > Your race background will be helpful in designing a good hot street cam.
> > Not sure if the Hawaiian cam is our best cam design or not.
> > It sounds like it moves the power band up in rpm.
> > Not sure what it does for low end torque.
> > I have a great cam grind shop just south of me. He has ground cams for me in the past. Dave is the owner, nice guy and quality work.
http://www.camtechniques.com/
> > I emailed him about the Honda cam yesterday.
> > I will look at my notes on cam design and see what I can find.
> > Cam design is a balancing game between high rpm power and drivability. I want my coupe to be a little better than stock.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jpro8071" wrote:
> > > Page 4-1 of the blue manual "Honda 360/400/600 Sedan & Van" shows the following for the 600:
> > > Valve timing (at 1mm, 0.039in. cam lift)
> > > 1969 1970
> > > Inlet valve open btdc 0 5
> > > Inlet valve close abdc 40 20
> > > Intake Duration (calc) 220 205
> > > Exhaust valve open bbdc 40 40
> > > Exhaust valve close atdc 0 10
> > > Exhaust Duration (calc) 220 230
> > > Overlap (calc) 0 15
> > > ("calc" entries made using
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html
)
> > > I don't think there is any difference in lift, since page 4-25 step 4 does not differentiate for the two cams for lobe height. Note that all of this is from the manual - I haven't checked the numbers myself.
> > > Besides differences in duration, pay attention to overlap . . .
> > > I've got a spreadsheet somewhere of other race cam specs, will try to dig it up.
> > > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > > Bill, I don't have a sedan shop manual.
> > > > Can you scan it?
> > > > Or send me a copy with the window seals I ordered from you.
> > > > Are these numbers like a cam grind sheet?
> > > > Like Duration, lift, intake open 0 degree's BTDC at 1mm lift?
> > > > I want to buy a hotter cam or get one of my cams ground and then degree the cam.
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Lyle
> > > > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> > > > > Hi Lyle;
> > > > > Yes, it is in the Sedan shop manual. First section.
> > > > > Bill
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:38 PM
> > > > > To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Cam grind specs?
> > > > > Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock and Hawaiian cam?
> > > > > I want to build one stock and one slightly hotter engine.
> > > > > This would also be good info for degreeing the cam.
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > > Lyle
> > > > > �l

lyletrudell · Post by **lyletrudell** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:15 pm

So the 1969 is the Hawaiian cam?
The 1970 is the stock cam used in most Honda's?
Looked at my notes and found this info about cams from an R1 website.
"The most important aspect of cam timing is the intake valve closing event which determines how much cylinder pressure your engine will build. In other words if you close the intake valve early the cylinder will build more pressure as the piston compresses the mixture past BDC toward TDC and you'll have a bigger "bang" at lower revs. If you close it later you'll have less pressure but the engine will maintain it higher up in the rev range as the engine does not have to overcome "pumping losses" compressing the mixture. The exhaust cam works similarly but is not as important, only changing the rpm at which the engine will "overscavenge" (suck the intake charge out the exhaust) due to valve overlap. An engine with greater valve overlap will run more poorly at low rpm than one with less overlap. All things being equal the first example may run better at higher rpm but the second example will develop better midrange (better street engine)".
So the 1969 cam closes the intake valve 20 degrees later, which will give power at higher rpms.
How about this for a hotter Honda cam?

> > Valve timing (1mm cam lift)
> > Inlet valve open btdc 10
> > Inlet valve close abdc 40
> > Intake Duration 230
> > Exhaust valve open bbdc 40
> > Exhaust valve close atdc 5
> > Exhaust Duration 225
> > Overlap 15

This is in my Opel GT, too hot.

> > Valve timing (.05" cam lift)
> > Inlet valve open btdc 19
> > Inlet valve close abdc 47
> > Intake Duration 246
> > Exhaust valve open bbdc 53
> > Exhaust valve close atdc 9
> > Exhaust Duration 242
> > Overlap 28 ??

Lyle

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jpro8071" wrote:
> Page 4-1 of the blue manual "Honda 360/400/600 Sedan & Van" shows the following for the 600:
> Valve timing (at 1mm, 0.039in. cam lift)
> 1969 1970
> Inlet valve open btdc 0 5
> Inlet valve close abdc 40 20
> Intake Duration (calc) 220 205
> Exhaust valve open bbdc 40 40
> Exhaust valve close atdc 0 10
> Exhaust Duration (calc) 220 230
> Overlap (calc) 0 15
> ("calc" entries made using
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html
)
> I don't think there is any difference in lift, since page 4-25 step 4 does not differentiate for the two cams for lobe height. Note that all of this is from the manual - I haven't checked the numbers myself.
> Besides differences in duration, pay attention to overlap . . .
> I've got a spreadsheet somewhere of other race cam specs, will try to dig it up.
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Bill, I don't have a sedan shop manual.
> > Can you scan it?
> > Or send me a copy with the window seals I ordered from you.
> > Are these numbers like a cam grind sheet?
> > Like Duration, lift, intake open 0 degree's BTDC at 1mm lift?
> > I want to buy a hotter cam or get one of my cams ground and then degree the cam.
> > Thanks
> > Lyle
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> > > Hi Lyle;
> > > Yes, it is in the Sedan shop manual. First section.
> > > Bill
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:38 PM
> > > To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Cam grind specs?
> > > Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock and Hawaiian cam?
> > > I want to build one stock and one slightly hotter engine.
> > > This would also be good info for degreeing the cam.
> > > Thanks
> > > Lyle
> > > �l

CHEYENNE FLETCHER · Post by **CHEYENNE FLETCHER** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:13 am

Wat does it cost to have a custom grind done??

> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> lyletrudell
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent:
> Friday, July 30, 2010 11:41
> AM
> Subject:
> [2cylinderhondas] Re: Cam grind
> specs?
> Thanks Jpro, I couldn't find it in the coupe or haines manual.
> Your race
> background will be helpful in designing a good hot street cam.
> Not sure if
> the Hawaiian cam is our best cam design or not.
> It sounds like it moves the
> power band up in rpm.
> Not sure what it does for low end torque.
> I
> have a great cam grind shop just south of me. He has ground cams for me in the > past. Dave is the owner, nice guy and quality work.
> http://www.camtechniques.com/
> I
> emailed him about the Honda cam yesterday.
> I will look at my notes on
> cam design and see what I can find.
> Cam design is a balancing game between
> high rpm power and drivability. I want my coupe to be a little better than > stock.
> Lyle
> --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> "jpro8071" wrote:
> > Page 4-1 of the blue
> manual "Honda 360/400/600 Sedan & Van" shows the following for the > 600:
> > Valve timing (at 1mm, 0.039in. cam lift)
> > 1969
> 1970
> > Inlet valve open btdc 0 5
> > Inlet valve close abdc 40
> 20
> > Intake Duration (calc) 220 205
> > Exhaust valve open bbdc 40
> 40
> > Exhaust valve close atdc 0 10
> > Exhaust Duration (calc) 220
> 230
> > Overlap (calc) 0 15
> > ("calc" entries made using
> http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/camshaft.html
> )
> > I don't think there is any difference in lift, since page > 4-25 step 4 does not differentiate for the two cams for lobe height. Note that > all of this is from the manual - I haven't checked the numbers myself.
> > Besides differences in duration, pay attention to overlap . . .
> > I've got a spreadsheet somewhere of other race cam specs, > will try to dig it up.
> > --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Bill, I
> don't have a sedan shop manual.
> > > Can you scan it?
> > > Or
> send me a copy with the window seals I ordered from you.
> > > Are
> these numbers like a cam grind sheet?
> > > Like Duration, lift, intake
> open 0 degree's BTDC at 1mm lift?
> > > I want to buy a hotter cam or
> get one of my cams ground and then degree the cam.
> > > Thanks
> > Lyle
> > > --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> wrote:
> > > > Hi Lyle;
> > > Yes, it is in the Sedan shop manual. First section.
> > Bill
> > > > -----Original
> Message-----
> > > > From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of lyletrudell
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 1:38
> PM
> > > > To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Cam grind specs?
> > > Does anyone know where I can find the cam grind specs for the stock > and Hawaiian cam?
> > > > I want to build one stock and one slightly
> hotter engine.
> > > > This would also be good info for degreeing
> the cam.
> > > > Thanks
> > > > Lyle
> > > > �l

Honda600Forum.com

Cam grind specs?

Cam grind specs?

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