Bill and group,
If I am going to look at the upper end of a rod, what should I look for? I presume I will have to go as far down as pulling the cylinder block and the pistons to examine it. I guess that there is a bearing on the small end of the rod that may need replacing there? I am concerned that I will be looking at a damaged part and not recognize it as such.
I ordered a cheap gadget; a stethoscope for listening to engines. Is this a useless toy, or is it possible to narrow down the source of a problem like this with it?
Steve
Re: 600 noise
-
riceburner006
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2002 7:23 am
Re: 600 noise
--- In anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com, Steven Michelsen
wrote:
cylinder block and the pistons to examine it. I guess that there
is a bearing on the small end of the rod that may need replacing
there? I am concerned that I will be looking at a damaged part and
not recognize it as such.
of a problem like this with it?
motors usually wear before a rod does. All it takes is to run real
low on oil and you'll wear pins,and many other parts. After you pull
the cylinder and pistons,check for excessive clearance between wrist
pin and rod and, it always wears in the middle where it rides on eye
of the rod. The stethescope works for some noises,but it's tough to
tell if it's coming from the top or bottom of cylinder. riceburner006
is the rod.
gear, ending in a 3500 rpm cruise. The sound is here:
www.honda600coupe.com/accelerate_to_4th.wav Miles has heard it,
and made the comments below. He suggested I reprint his thoughts
here.
cases. Typically in 3rd gear @ 35 mph there is piston slap noise
which you can't do much about. Please record the noise at idle and
send it.
repeatedly it means the seat is pounding into the head, it only
takes about an hour to dismantle the top end. Lots more to
reassemble, but get new gaskets & seals before tearing it down.
diameter. I would personally tear off the cylinders and check rods,
when you get the head off see if the top of 1 or both pistons are
missing carbon deposits at the edges. This means the piston has been
hitting the head. If this is the case you will need a crank. You can
call me before you start or as you go.
the crank pulley, if it rocks and the piston/s doesn't move, you may
have bad crank. (You can post my comments on the group if you want
alternate input)
wrote:
look for? I presume I will have to go as far down as pulling the> Bill and group,
> If I am going to look at the upper end of a rod, what should I
cylinder block and the pistons to examine it. I guess that there
is a bearing on the small end of the rod that may need replacing
there? I am concerned that I will be looking at a damaged part and
not recognize it as such.
Is this a useless toy, or is it possible to narrow down the source> I ordered a cheap gadget; a stethoscope for listening to engines.
of a problem like this with it?
Steve,600 motor has no small end rod bearing.The wrist pin on these> Steve
motors usually wear before a rod does. All it takes is to run real
low on oil and you'll wear pins,and many other parts. After you pull
the cylinder and pistons,check for excessive clearance between wrist
pin and rod and, it always wears in the middle where it rides on eye
of the rod. The stethescope works for some noises,but it's tough to
tell if it's coming from the top or bottom of cylinder. riceburner006
the lower end, it may be the upper end of the rod. But the best bet> ----- Original Message -----
> From: william colford
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 1:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Fw: 600 noise
> Hi Steven;
> It sure has the ring of a rod, but I wouldn't hold out for
is the rod.
website. I recorded the Coupe going from a standing start to 4th> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steven Michelsen
> To: Honda group ;
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:17 AM
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Fw: 600 noise
> I put another recording of my Coupe's noisy engine on my
gear, ending in a 3500 rpm cruise. The sound is here:
www.honda600coupe.com/accelerate_to_4th.wav Miles has heard it,
and made the comments below. He suggested I reprint his thoughts
here.
ever, and you can't bend a rod unless it punches a hole in the> OK, doctors, any second opinions before I operate?
> Thanks,
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Miles Chappell
> To: Steven Michelsen
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:15 PM
> Subject: Re: 600 noise
> (after hearing the original recording)
> sounds like small end rod knock. You can't hear the chain -
cases. Typically in 3rd gear @ 35 mph there is piston slap noise
which you can't do much about. Please record the noise at idle and
send it.
First off, if the valve clearance on one valve becomes tight> (after hearing the sound posted above...)
> sounds horrible ! I'd tear the top end off and inspect stuff.
repeatedly it means the seat is pounding into the head, it only
takes about an hour to dismantle the top end. Lots more to
reassemble, but get new gaskets & seals before tearing it down.
stop, but you may find the center roller is worn. It is normally 3"> How far to go reflects what you find as you go.
> If you get the head off and the seat is beat in then you could
diameter. I would personally tear off the cylinders and check rods,
when you get the head off see if the top of 1 or both pistons are
missing carbon deposits at the edges. This means the piston has been
hitting the head. If this is the case you will need a crank. You can
call me before you start or as you go.
then shine a flash light inside below TDC, use a 17mm wrench to rock> The other thing I would do would be to remove the spark plugs,
the crank pulley, if it rocks and the piston/s doesn't move, you may
have bad crank. (You can post my comments on the group if you want
alternate input)
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
-
dealadayray
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 12:08 am
Re: 600 noise
Hi there Group...
I asked the question from NAPA the other day and received the following
answer. As you said, WIX was the filter manufacturer before for NAPA but as
they are not making them any longer NAPA too is not offering them.
Selected stores may have them in stock, but on line does not show them.
Best bet is to go to your local NAPA manufacturer and using the number that
has been provided to see if there are any still on the shelf.
As to the remote filter, there are draw backs, 1-don't mix your lines (in
and out) up, it will cause your filter to burst. 2-don't run across curbs
or any objects which can cause the fittings to be knocked off, loss of oil
will cause a catastrophic event. 3-It adds almost another quart of oil to
the system which is great, but you still need to change it just as before.
4-Fill the filter before installing it, the flow from your Honda oil pump
can cause the pressure valve internal to the filter to close and again cause
the filter to burst. 5-the filter is a PH-8A, which normally sells for
$2.00 on sale, but you have to stand in line with Ford owners, just don't
tell the counter guy your buying it for a Honda. I had one guy tell me he
knew Ford was building XJ8's but he had not heard they were making Honda's.
Bill
****************************************************************************
I asked the question from NAPA the other day and received the following
answer. As you said, WIX was the filter manufacturer before for NAPA but as
they are not making them any longer NAPA too is not offering them.
Selected stores may have them in stock, but on line does not show them.
Best bet is to go to your local NAPA manufacturer and using the number that
has been provided to see if there are any still on the shelf.
As to the remote filter, there are draw backs, 1-don't mix your lines (in
and out) up, it will cause your filter to burst. 2-don't run across curbs
or any objects which can cause the fittings to be knocked off, loss of oil
will cause a catastrophic event. 3-It adds almost another quart of oil to
the system which is great, but you still need to change it just as before.
4-Fill the filter before installing it, the flow from your Honda oil pump
can cause the pressure valve internal to the filter to close and again cause
the filter to burst. 5-the filter is a PH-8A, which normally sells for
$2.00 on sale, but you have to stand in line with Ford owners, just don't
tell the counter guy your buying it for a Honda. I had one guy tell me he
knew Ford was building XJ8's but he had not heard they were making Honda's.
Bill
****************************************************************************
-
dealadayray
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 12:08 am
Re: 600 noise
Hi Ricebutner;
Your correct there are no roller bearings on the upper end, there is
however a babbitted (bearing) on the upper end of the rod. Babbitting is a
bearing material used in many non-roller bearing applications. Most are
oiled by pressure however Honda uses splash. The upper piston pin on the
Honda 600 is free floating and if the temperature reaches the point of
changing your oil to tar your wrist pin will stop floating and seize. I
have also seen the upper end of the rod over size when a oil pump rod stops
working, again heat being the cause of the departure from spec. The best
answer for a cure is to use an over sized wrist pin when changing your
piston during overhaul. Be aware that the upper end of the piston rod as
well as the piston have to be bored to the same spec for the new (Over
sized) wrist pin. I have a set of reamers that are adjustable and allows
you to use the old wrist pin to act as an alignment tool so that all three
surfaces (the rod and both sides of the piston) are in line.
The Question: What do you look for on the upper end of the rod? The
Honda shop manual gives a good trouble shooting guide to test the upper end
of the rod. Visual lead might be looking for galling, cracks and Egg
shaping of the bearing surface. The best way to check out your crankshaft
is to pull it, take it to the bench and do all the recommended tests.
Remember when your Honda 600 goes into self destruct mode, there is not much
time left. But I know of several Honda 600 engines that have run for years
with an upper end rod knock.
Bill
Your correct there are no roller bearings on the upper end, there is
however a babbitted (bearing) on the upper end of the rod. Babbitting is a
bearing material used in many non-roller bearing applications. Most are
oiled by pressure however Honda uses splash. The upper piston pin on the
Honda 600 is free floating and if the temperature reaches the point of
changing your oil to tar your wrist pin will stop floating and seize. I
have also seen the upper end of the rod over size when a oil pump rod stops
working, again heat being the cause of the departure from spec. The best
answer for a cure is to use an over sized wrist pin when changing your
piston during overhaul. Be aware that the upper end of the piston rod as
well as the piston have to be bored to the same spec for the new (Over
sized) wrist pin. I have a set of reamers that are adjustable and allows
you to use the old wrist pin to act as an alignment tool so that all three
surfaces (the rod and both sides of the piston) are in line.
The Question: What do you look for on the upper end of the rod? The
Honda shop manual gives a good trouble shooting guide to test the upper end
of the rod. Visual lead might be looking for galling, cracks and Egg
shaping of the bearing surface. The best way to check out your crankshaft
is to pull it, take it to the bench and do all the recommended tests.
Remember when your Honda 600 goes into self destruct mode, there is not much
time left. But I know of several Honda 600 engines that have run for years
with an upper end rod knock.
Bill