Cam chain tensioner piston

Archived posts from the ANZ Honda 600 Owners Yahoo Group
zinc2u
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:45 am

Re: 20W-50 oil??

Post by zinc2u »

Hi Lyle,
    Have you (and your various car clubs) looked at Red Line Oil for use in your vehicles?  I was looking at the specs on their auto and motorcycle oil and they seem to have everything you would desire for lubricating qualities.  They have  10W-40 and 20W-50 grades plus others.
Dale
> Hey good info!
> Using a straight 50w oil might be a good idea in our
> Honda's that are used in hot climates. 40W in cooler climates. With high > levels of ZDP.
> So we agree:
> *Air cooled engines heat up very
> quick.
> *Our engines have looser clearances.
> *We have blow bye from the
> rings.
> *No valve seals.
> *Short run times & high
> RPM's.
> *Transmission uses the same oil.
> *We only have about 3 quarts of
> oil to work with, so it gets dirty and diluted very fast.
> *New oils have
> less or no ZDP.
> No wonder the engines are worn out after 70K
> miles!
> The thought of using a multigrade 20w-50 was quick flow to the > bearings as a 20w and the protection of a 50w when it warms up.
> But, maybe
> we don't need this.
> A motorcycle oil might be a good way to go. Not
> sure about how much ZDP is in them, but it should be much higher than auto > oil.
> Something to check on.
> Thanks for the imput.
> Lyle
> ---
> In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> brad fenn wrote:
> > I would tend to
> agree with bill on this one. I worked for VW back in the 70s and > > 80s > and it was recommended to run single viscosity oils in the air cooled
> engines, 30w in the winter and 40w in the summer. And I raced VWs for years > and > > always ran 50w racing oil in them and never had an engine > failure. Also the air > > cooled engines temperatures run in extremes and > change rapidly. VWs ran oil > > coolers from the factory .It was always > recommended to run bigger oil coolers > > for racing as the oil did take > part in the cooling of the engine. So I would > > believe that running an > external filter and cooler would be very helpful in not > > only helping > the engine run cleaner and cooler that the extra oil capacity would
> take longer to break down. And as far as the thinner grades of oil being used
> > in the newer cars, yes the clearances are much tighter,and with the > help of the > > newer synthetics they can run a very thin viscosity oil.
> Part of the reason they
> > do this is to increase the fuel mileage on
> these newer cars. But for these older
> > cars, use a thicker oil.
> Anyway, that is my opinion. Brad
> > From: "billmyong@..."
>
> > To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 11:48:02 PM
> > Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners]
> Re: 20W-50 oil??
> > Really;
> > Normally I
> agree to most information put on the site. But, thinner grades of > > oil > 5W30 and the like are there because of the closer tolerances most new
> engines have. Thicker oils like 20W50 and up are used in engines that have
> > wear. ZDDP and other additives have limited qualities. Like STP, I > used to > > run it in my 65 Chevy Nova because it didn't smoke (as much) > as long as I had a > > couple of quarts of the stuff in my engine. It > didn't help the wear any, as > > it didn't replace any of the metal. Take > a look at the site below and see > > what others are saying.
> http://www.nordicgr
> oup.us/oil. htm#Thicker%
> 20is%20Better% 20Myth
> > Change the oil, use a good filter and
> things should go well.
> > Just remember one thing, these
> engines (the Honda 600) are high revving and
> > warm up quickly. The
> warmer the metal parts are in your engine the greater
> > chance of wear.
> Heat also breaks down the viscosity oil, removing the heat > > will allow > the oil to retain it's viscosity, which allows the oil to keep a thin
> coating on the cylinder walls.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups. com [mailto:anzhonda600
> > >owners@yahoogrou ps.com]On
> Behalf Of goinhm@...
> > >Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:21
> PM
> > >To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > >Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: 20W-50 oil??
> >Hi Lyle,
> > > Thanks for this info on the oils and
> ZDP. I did do a search on the
> > >keywords you suggested and saw lots
> of info from motorcycle and car clubs
> > >plus companies selling
> lubrication products. Looks like ZDP is a desirable
> > >additive for
> our cars and cannot doing any harm to them. I also did a search
> >on the keywords
> > >"SAE oil ZDP" to see what info was available
> from the auto manufacturer
> > >side. This also had lots of good info
> with background on ZDP and the backward
> > >compatibility of new oils
> with older engines. One SAE article pretty much
> > >said that unless
> your engine has high valve train forces such as a 60s Dodge > > >Hemi, > the modern motor oils will work fine and they were developed to be
> >backward compatible with older engines.
> > > The actual SAE site has many articles on lubrication but they > are for > > >sale. So, then it requires some extra effort to find > someone who has posted > > >the article (or condensed version of it) > elsewhere on the web. Anyone on > > >here have a copy of the SAE 2004 > Powertrain Conference?
> > > Months ago, I saw someone
> make a post recommending using an oil
> > >formulated for motorcycles.
> That is probably not a bad idea since the oil is
> > >intended for
> systems where the engine and tranny share the same lubrication.
> >And maybe they put some ZDP in it.
> > >thanks again,
> Lyle, for your comments,
> > >Dale
> > >Oil is a big issue with
> this engine. Dale, like you said, changing it more
> > >often, using a
> good oil and maybe an oil cooler is the key.
> >>But, our engine oils have changed over the past 2-5 years!
> >>In some ways better with multi-grades that have a wider viscosity > range > > >>than years ago.
> > >>Also worse with
> Anti-wear additives being removed, the most common zinc
> >>dithiophosphate (ZDP), which is a combination of zinc and phosphorus.
> Taken
> > >>out because it will hurt the catalytic converters on
> the newer cars, which
> > >>now have roller cams/lifters.
> >>I have a 70 Opel GT and 59 Triumph TR3 and our clubs have been > researching > > >>and testing this for years. The conclusion is we > need this in our flat > > >>tappet engines.
> > >>Most
> motorcycles also have the same issue.
> > >>One of the oils we
> decided to use in the cars is Rotella-T 15W-40 for diesel
> >>engines, because of the higher levels of (ZDP) and it's available
> > >>everywhere and cheap. Some also add a 1/2 can of STP in > hotter climates.
> > >>In my Motorcycle engines I use CastrolActevo
> 20w-50.
> > >>Watch out, most oils like castrol, valvoline and
> others have removed the
> > >>(ZDP)and they don't say they removed
> it! Rotella still has it as of the new
> > >>year.
> > >>Don't run a straight 50 weight oil, a multi-grade is
> best for these engines
> > >>because of varying temperature
> ranges.
> > >>The Honda engine:
> > >>*Is
> a flat tappet engine.
> > >>*Roller bearings running on a crank
> with no sleeves.
> > >>*It uses aluminum as a bearing
> surface.
> > >>*Very low oil pressure to the bearings if
> any.
> > >>*A piston type oil pump.
> > >>*Air
> cooled.
> > >>How does your Honda engine look after
> 75K miles? Worn and the clearances
> > >>are now greater just like
> all my engines.
> > >>It's your engine, do some
> research, type in(ZDP air cooled motorcycle
> > >>engines)and you
> will know more about oil and additives than you ever wanted
> >>to.
> > >>I say in warmer climates use 15w-40 or 20w-50 with
> a high level of (ZDP).
> > >>Just my 2 cents, minus taxes!
> >>Lyle
lyletrudell
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: 20W-50 oil??

Post by lyletrudell »

Dale,
Yes, some of the Opel race guys run Redline, too expensive for me, since I change my oil so often.
Probably every 1K miles or 3-4months. Don't drive it alot and mostly stop & go city driving.
It will run to 8K rpm and I have seen an indicated 135mph, not on the public road of course ;)
Good oil pressure and good temperature readings.
Lyle
--- In anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com, goinhm@... wrote:
> Hi Lyle,
> Have you (and your various car clubs) looked at Red Line Oil for use
> in your vehicles? I was looking at the specs on their auto and motorcycle
> oil and they seem to have everything you would desire for lubricating
> qualities. They have 10W-40 and 20W-50 grades plus others.
> Dale
> Hey good info!
> Using a straight 50w oil might be a good idea in our Honda's that are used
> in hot climates. 40W in cooler climates. With high levels of ZDP.
> So we agree:
> *Air cooled engines heat up very quick.
> *Our engines have looser clearances.
> *We have blow bye from the rings.
> *No valve seals.
> *Short run times & high RPM's.
> *Transmission uses the same oil.
> *We only have about 3 quarts of oil to work with, so it gets dirty and
> diluted very fast.
> *New oils have less or no ZDP.
> No wonder the engines are worn out after 70K miles!
> The thought of using a multigrade 20w-50 was quick flow to the bearings as
> a 20w and the protection of a 50w when it warms up.
> But, maybe we don't need this.
> A motorcycle oil might be a good way to go. Not sure about how much ZDP is
> in them, but it should be much higher than auto oil.
> Something to check on.
> Thanks for the imput.
> Lyle
> --- In _anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com_
> (mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com) , brad fenn wrote:
> > I would tend to agree with bill on this one. I worked for VW back in the
> 70s and
> > 80s and it was recommended to run single viscosity oils in the air
> cooled
> > engines, 30w in the winter and 40w in the summer. And I raced VWs for
> years and
> > always ran 50w racing oil in them and never had an engine failure. Also
> the air
> > cooled engines temperatures run in extremes and change rapidly. VWs ran
> oil
> > coolers from the factory .It was always recommended to run bigger oil
> coolers
> > for racing as the oil did take part in the cooling of the engine. So I
> would
> > believe that running an external filter and cooler would be very helpful
> in not
> > only helping the engine run cleaner and cooler that the extra oil
> capacity would
> > take longer to break down. And as far as the thinner grades of oil being
> used
> > in the newer cars, yes the clearances are much tighter,and with the help
> of the
> > newer synthetics they can run a very thin viscosity oil. Part of the
> reason they
> > do this is to increase the fuel mileage on these newer cars. But for
> these older
> > cars, use a thicker oil. Anyway, that is my opinion. Brad
> > From: "billmyong@"
> > To: _anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com_
> (mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com)
> > Sent: Wed, July 21, 2010 11:48:02 PM
> > Subject: RE: [anzhonda600owners] Re: 20W-50 oil??
> > Really;
> > Normally I agree to most information put on the site. But, thinner
> grades of
> > oil 5W30 and the like are there because of the closer tolerances most
> new
> > engines have. Thicker oils like 20W50 and up are used in engines that
> have
> > wear. ZDDP and other additives have limited qualities. Like STP, I used
> to
> > run it in my 65 Chevy Nova because it didn't smoke (as much) as long as
> I had a
> > couple of quarts of the stuff in my engine. It didn't help the wear any,
> as
> > it didn't replace any of the metal. Take a look at the site below and
> see
> > what others are saying.
> > _http://www.nordicgr_ (http://www.nordicgr/) oup.us/oil. htm#Thicker%
> 20is%20Better% 20Myth
> > Change the oil, use a good filter and things should go well.
> > Just remember one thing, these engines (the Honda 600) are high revving
> and
> > warm up quickly. The warmer the metal parts are in your engine the
> greater
> > chance of wear. Heat also breaks down the viscosity oil, removing the
> heat
> > will allow the oil to retain it's viscosity, which allows the oil to
> keep a thin
> > coating on the cylinder walls.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > >From: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:anzhonda600
> > >owners@yahoogrou ps.com]On Behalf Of goinhm@
> > >Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:21 PM
> > >To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > >Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: 20W-50 oil??
> > >Hi Lyle,
> > > Thanks for this info on the oils and ZDP. I did do a search on the
> > >keywords you suggested and saw lots of info from motorcycle and car
> clubs
> > >plus companies selling lubrication products. Looks like ZDP is a
> desirable
> > >additive for our cars and cannot doing any harm to them. I also did a
> search
> > >on the keywords
> > >"SAE oil ZDP" to see what info was available from the auto manufacturer
> > >side. This also had lots of good info with background on ZDP and the
> backward
> > >compatibility of new oils with older engines. One SAE article pretty
> much
> > >said that unless your engine has high valve train forces such as a 60s
> Dodge
> > >Hemi, the modern motor oils will work fine and they were developed to
> be
> > >backward compatible with older engines.
> > > The actual SAE site has many articles on lubrication but they are for
> > >sale. So, then it requires some extra effort to find someone who has
> posted
> > >the article (or condensed version of it) elsewhere on the web. Anyone
> on
> > >here have a copy of the SAE 2004 Powertrain Conference?
> > > Months ago, I saw someone make a post recommending using an oil
> > >formulated for motorcycles. That is probably not a bad idea since the
> oil is
> > >intended for systems where the engine and tranny share the same
> lubrication.
> > >And maybe they put some ZDP in it.
> > >thanks again, Lyle, for your comments,
> > >Dale
> > >Oil is a big issue with this engine. Dale, like you said, changing it
> more
> > >often, using a good oil and maybe an oil cooler is the key.
> > >>But, our engine oils have changed over the past 2-5 years!
> > >>In some ways better with multi-grades that have a wider viscosity
> range
> > >>than years ago.
> > >>Also worse with Anti-wear additives being removed, the most common
> zinc
> > >>dithiophosphate (ZDP), which is a combination of zinc and phosphorus.
> Taken
> > >>out because it will hurt the catalytic converters on the newer cars,
> which
> > >>now have roller cams/lifters.
> > >>I have a 70 Opel GT and 59 Triumph TR3 and our clubs have been
> researching
> > >>and testing this for years. The conclusion is we need this in our flat
> > >>tappet engines.
> > >>Most motorcycles also have the same issue.
> > >>One of the oils we decided to use in the cars is Rotella-T 15W-40 for
> diesel
> > >>engines, because of the higher levels of (ZDP) and it's available
> > >>everywhere and cheap. Some also add a 1/2 can of STP in hotter
> climates.
> > >>In my Motorcycle engines I use CastrolActevo 20w-50.
> > >>Watch out, most oils like castrol, valvoline and others have removed
> the
> > >>(ZDP)and they don't say they removed it! Rotella still has it as of
> the new
> > >>year.
> > >>Don't run a straight 50 weight oil, a multi-grade is best for these
> engines
> > >>because of varying temperature ranges.
> > >>The Honda engine:
> > >>*Is a flat tappet engine.
> > >>*Roller bearings running on a crank with no sleeves.
> > >>*It uses aluminum as a bearing surface.
> > >>*Very low oil pressure to the bearings if any.
> > >>*A piston type oil pump.
> > >>*Air cooled.
> > >>How does your Honda engine look after 75K miles? Worn and the
> clearances
> > >>are now greater just like all my engines.
> > >>It's your engine, do some research, type in(ZDP air cooled motorcycle
> > >>engines)and you will know more about oil and additives than you ever
> wanted
> > >>to.
> > >>I say in warmer climates use 15w-40 or 20w-50 with a high level of
> (ZDP).
> > >>Just my 2 cents, minus taxes!
> > >>Lyle
lyletrudell
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: Cam chain tensioner piston

Post by lyletrudell »

Sorry for starting so many posts.
It keeps me organized and other club members can keep me from doing something stupid to my car!
On my lunch break I pulled the cam chain tensioner apart and checked out how it works.
A simple piston design with a check valve and a return spring.
Oil pressure flows through the 4 holes and unseats the ball check valve. The oil then pushes the piston out, hopefully with enough force to keep the cam chain tight.
The spring is so weak it does nothing except to keep the piston from pushing back when the car is not running.
Problems:
*The tensioner only works when we have full oil pressure on the piston, so the chain is loose on start up.
*O-rings hard and not sealing.
My idea to fix this:
*Use modified stronger return spring.
*New O-rings.
The new spring will now keep tension on the chain when starting up and when we don't have full oil pressure.
From the wear marks on the cam tensioner arm, the piston is "about" a 1/4" out when the chain is tight.
Spring pressure piston full out:
Stock = 2-1/2 pounds.
Modified = 10 pounds.
Spring pressure piston 1/4" out:
Stock = 8 pounds.
Modified = 24 pounds.
See photo section for pictures of my new Stronger spring and new O-rings.
Thoughts?
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed enough, and cheap materials.
> Problems with cam chain components:
> *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets the chain get loose.
> *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin & slider fall out.
> *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> I will use a new chain.
> The wheels and rollers are good.
> The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> Lyle
Marshall
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:10 pm

Re: Cam chain tensioner piston

Post by Marshall »

I can't recall the exact phrasing Honda use in the manual concerning the non-return valve test but I do recall being surprised at them indicating a slow passing back through the valve being acceptable...... Hydraulic pressure being lost moments after engine stop in effect. This was why I commented earlier on the tension wheel getting momentary abuse from the chain on each start.
Marshall.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> Sorry for starting so many posts.
> It keeps me organized and other club members can keep me from doing something stupid to my car!
> On my lunch break I pulled the cam chain tensioner apart and checked out how it works.
> A simple piston design with a check valve and a return spring.
> Oil pressure flows through the 4 holes and unseats the ball check valve. The oil then pushes the piston out, hopefully with enough force to keep the cam chain tight.
> The spring is so weak it does nothing except to keep the piston from pushing back when the car is not running.
> Problems:
> *The tensioner only works when we have full oil pressure on the piston, so the chain is loose on start up.
> *O-rings hard and not sealing.
> My idea to fix this:
> *Use modified stronger return spring.
> *New O-rings.
> The new spring will now keep tension on the chain when starting up and when we don't have full oil pressure.
> From the wear marks on the cam tensioner arm, the piston is "about" a 1/4" out when the chain is tight.
> Spring pressure piston full out:
> Stock = 2-1/2 pounds.
> Modified = 10 pounds.
> Spring pressure piston 1/4" out:
> Stock = 8 pounds.
> Modified = 24 pounds.
> See photo section for pictures of my new Stronger spring and new O-rings.
> Thoughts?
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> > Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> > Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed enough, and cheap materials.
> > Problems with cam chain components:
> > *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets the chain get loose.
> > *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> > *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin & slider fall out.
> > *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> > I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> > I will use a new chain.
> > The wheels and rollers are good.
> > The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> > I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> > I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> > Lyle
lyletrudell
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: Cam chain tensioner piston

Post by lyletrudell »

Marshall, I agree.
The piston does leak down, I tried it.
With out oil pressure keeping the ball seated, some oil gets past the ball check valve and some past the piston to bore clearance.
So in just a couple minutes with the engine not running the oil pressure would be gone and the chain is loose.
Then on re-start, the guides, sprockets and rollers get abused until the oil pressure builds back up again.
Not good for cam timing either!
I think the stronger spring will help.
24 pounds should keep the chain tight until the oil pressure builds.
I modified both of my tensioners.
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> I can't recall the exact phrasing Honda use in the manual concerning the non-return valve test but I do recall being surprised at them indicating a slow passing back through the valve being acceptable...... Hydraulic pressure being lost moments after engine stop in effect. This was why I commented earlier on the tension wheel getting momentary abuse from the chain on each start.
> Marshall.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Sorry for starting so many posts.
> > It keeps me organized and other club members can keep me from doing something stupid to my car!
> > On my lunch break I pulled the cam chain tensioner apart and checked out how it works.
> > A simple piston design with a check valve and a return spring.
> > Oil pressure flows through the 4 holes and unseats the ball check valve. The oil then pushes the piston out, hopefully with enough force to keep the cam chain tight.
> > The spring is so weak it does nothing except to keep the piston from pushing back when the car is not running.
> > Problems:
> > *The tensioner only works when we have full oil pressure on the piston, so the chain is loose on start up.
> > *O-rings hard and not sealing.
> > My idea to fix this:
> > *Use modified stronger return spring.
> > *New O-rings.
> > The new spring will now keep tension on the chain when starting up and when we don't have full oil pressure.
> > From the wear marks on the cam tensioner arm, the piston is "about" a 1/4" out when the chain is tight.
> > Spring pressure piston full out:
> > Stock = 2-1/2 pounds.
> > Modified = 10 pounds.
> > Spring pressure piston 1/4" out:
> > Stock = 8 pounds.
> > Modified = 24 pounds.
> > See photo section for pictures of my new Stronger spring and new O-rings.
> > Thoughts?
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> > > Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> > > Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed enough, and cheap materials.
> > > Problems with cam chain components:
> > > *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets the chain get loose.
> > > *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> > > *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin & slider fall out.
> > > *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> > > I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> > > I will use a new chain.
> > > The wheels and rollers are good.
> > > The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> > > I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> > > I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> > > Lyle
brad fenn
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:09 am

Re: Cam chain tensioner piston

Post by brad fenn »

Years ago a  friend of mine was leaning on the front bumper of one of my 600s in which I hadn't set the brake,I had parked it in 1st gear.  Well while he was leaning against it the car rolled backwards while in 1st gear as I mentioned, after that happened, I got back in the car to leave and it wouldn't start, it had no compression.Found timing chain jumped a few teeth, but I was able to jump it back in place and I was on my way.
And that's what I had discovered back then, My engine had about 60K miles on it,so the chain was getting loose and the tensioner had leaked down, then the engine turning backwards just jumped the timing. Was lucky it didn't hit the valves.
From:
lyletrudell To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Fri, July 23, 2010 1:54:50 PM Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
Marshall, I agree.
The piston does leak down, I tried it.
With out oil pressure keeping the ball seated, some oil gets past the ball check valve and some past the piston to bore clearance.
So in just a couple minutes with the engine not running the oil pressure would be gone and the chain is loose.
Then on re-start, the guides, sprockets and rollers get abused until the oil pressure builds back up again.
Not good for cam timing either!
I think the stronger spring will help.
24 pounds should keep the chain tight until the oil pressure builds.
I modified both of my tensioners.
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> I can't recall the exact phrasing Honda use in the manual concerning the non-return valve test but I do recall being surprised at them indicating a slow passing back through the valve being acceptable...... Hydraulic pressure being lost moments after engine stop in effect. This was why I commented earlier on the tension wheel getting momentary abuse from the chain on each start.
> Marshall.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Sorry for starting so many posts.
> > It keeps me organized and other club members can keep me from doing something stupid to my car!
> > On my lunch break I pulled the cam chain tensioner apart and checked out how it works.
> > A simple piston design with a check valve and a return spring.
> > Oil pressure flows through the 4 holes and unseats the ball check valve. The oil then pushes the piston out, hopefully with enough force to keep the cam chain tight.
> > The spring is so weak it does nothing except to keep the piston from pushing back when the car is not running.
> > Problems:
> > *The tensioner only works when we have full oil pressure on the piston, so the chain is loose on start up.
> > *O-rings hard and not sealing.
> > My idea to fix this:
> > *Use modified stronger return spring.
> > *New O-rings.
> > The new spring will now keep tension on the chain when starting up and when we don't have full oil pressure.
> > From the wear marks on the cam tensioner arm, the piston is "about" a 1/4" out when the chain is tight.
> > Spring pressure piston full out:
> > Stock = 2-1/2 pounds.
> > Modified = 10 pounds.
> > Spring pressure piston 1/4" out:
> > Stock = 8 pounds.
> > Modified = 24 pounds.
> > See photo section for pictures of my new Stronger spring and new O-rings.
> > Thoughts?
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> > > Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> > > Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed enough, and cheap materials.
> > > Problems with cam chain components:
> > > *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets the chain get loose.
> > > *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> > > *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin & slider fall out.
> > > *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> > > I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> > > I will use a new chain.
> > > The wheels and rollers are good.
> > > The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> > > I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> > > I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> > > Lyle
lyletrudell
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:54 pm

Re: Cam chain tensioner piston

Post by lyletrudell »

Brad, that is a scary story, the chain can get loose enough to jump the cam sprocket. Good thing it only jumped a couple teeth or you would be replacing bent valves!
Seems like a lot of slack in the chain.
When I removed my cam, I never removed the tensioner.
The chain had plenty of slack to come up off the cam sprocket and my chain is not worn!
So is 108 links in the chain correct?
Sounds like it's too long to me!
Beware! The chain is only good for about 40-50K miles.
Good info!
If this car was made today, Honda would be busy with recalls!
The warranty was probably 12months/12K miles.
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, brad fenn wrote:
> Years ago a friend of mine was leaning on the front bumper of one of my 600s in
> which I hadn't set the brake,I had parked it in 1st gear. Well while he was
> leaning against it the car rolled backwards while in 1st gear as I mentioned,
> after that happened, I got back in the car to leave and it wouldn't start, it
> had no compression.Found timing chain jumped a few teeth, but I was able to jump
> it back in place and I was on my way.
> And that's what I had discovered back then, My engine had about 60K miles on
> it,so the chain was getting loose and the tensioner had leaked down, then the
> engine turning backwards just jumped the timing. Was lucky it didn't hit the
> valves.
> From: lyletrudell
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 1:54:50 PM
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> Marshall, I agree.
> The piston does leak down, I tried it.
> With out oil pressure keeping the ball seated, some oil gets past the ball check
> valve and some past the piston to bore clearance.
> So in just a couple minutes with the engine not running the oil pressure would
> be gone and the chain is loose.
> Then on re-start, the guides, sprockets and rollers get abused until the oil
> pressure builds back up again.
> Not good for cam timing either!
> I think the stronger spring will help.
> 24 pounds should keep the chain tight until the oil pressure builds.
> I modified both of my tensioners.
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> > I can't recall the exact phrasing Honda use in the manual concerning the
> >non-return valve test but I do recall being surprised at them indicating a slow
> >passing back through the valve being acceptable...... Hydraulic pressure being
> >lost moments after engine stop in effect. This was why I commented earlier on
> >the tension wheel getting momentary abuse from the chain on each start.
> > Marshall.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Sorry for starting so many posts.
> > > It keeps me organized and other club members can keep me from doing something
> >stupid to my car!
> > > On my lunch break I pulled the cam chain tensioner apart and checked out how
> >it works.
> > > A simple piston design with a check valve and a return spring.
> > > Oil pressure flows through the 4 holes and unseats the ball check valve. The
> >oil then pushes the piston out, hopefully with enough force to keep the cam
> >chain tight.
> > > The spring is so weak it does nothing except to keep the piston from pushing
> >back when the car is not running.
> > > Problems:
> > > *The tensioner only works when we have full oil pressure on the piston, so
> >the chain is loose on start up.
> > > *O-rings hard and not sealing.
> > > My idea to fix this:
> > > *Use modified stronger return spring.
> > > *New O-rings.
> > > The new spring will now keep tension on the chain when starting up and when
> >we don't have full oil pressure.
> > > From the wear marks on the cam tensioner arm, the piston is "about" a 1/4"
> >out when the chain is tight.
> > > Spring pressure piston full out:
> > > Stock = 2-1/2 pounds.
> > > Modified = 10 pounds.
> > > Spring pressure piston 1/4" out:
> > > Stock = 8 pounds.
> > > Modified = 24 pounds.
> > > See photo section for pictures of my new Stronger spring and new O-rings.
> > > Thoughts?
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell"
> wrote:
> > > > I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> > > > Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> > > > Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed
> >enough, and cheap materials.
> > > > Problems with cam chain components:
> > > > *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets
> >the chain get loose.
> > > > *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> > > > *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin &
> >slider fall out.
> > > > *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> > > > I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> > > > I will use a new chain.
> > > > The wheels and rollers are good.
> > > > The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> > > > I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> > > > I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> > > > Lyle
misterpoopoohead
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:34 am

Re: Cam chain tensioner piston

Post by misterpoopoohead »

Is the Honda 600 engine an "interference" engine? I thought they were non-interference?
Kev Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From:
"lyletrudell"
Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Date:
Fri, 23 Jul 2010 20:49:36 -0000
To:

ReplyTo:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
Brad, that is a scary story, the chain can get loose enough to jump the cam sprocket. Good thing it only jumped a couple teeth or you would be replacing bent valves!
Seems like a lot of slack in the chain.
When I removed my cam, I never removed the tensioner.
The chain had plenty of slack to come up off the cam sprocket and my chain is not worn!
So is 108 links in the chain correct?
Sounds like it's too long to me!
Beware! The chain is only good for about 40-50K miles.
Good info!
If this car was made today, Honda would be busy with recalls!
The warranty was probably 12months/12K miles.
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, brad fenn wrote:
> Years ago a friend of mine was leaning on the front bumper of one of my 600s in
> which I hadn't set the brake,I had parked it in 1st gear. Well while he was
> leaning against it the car rolled backwards while in 1st gear as I mentioned,
> after that happened, I got back in the car to leave and it wouldn't start, it
> had no compression.Found timing chain jumped a few teeth, but I was able to jump
> it back in place and I was on my way.
> And that's what I had discovered back then, My engine had about 60K miles on
> it,so the chain was getting loose and the tensioner had leaked down, then the
> engine turning backwards just jumped the timing. Was lucky it didn't hit the
> valves.
> From: lyletrudell
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 1:54:50 PM
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> Marshall, I agree.
> The piston does leak down, I tried it.
> With out oil pressure keeping the ball seated, some oil gets past the ball check
> valve and some past the piston to bore clearance.
> So in just a couple minutes with the engine not running the oil pressure would
> be gone and the chain is loose.
> Then on re-start, the guides, sprockets and rollers get abused until the oil
> pressure builds back up again.
> Not good for cam timing either!
> I think the stronger spring will help.
> 24 pounds should keep the chain tight until the oil pressure builds.
> I modified both of my tensioners.
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> > I can't recall the exact phrasing Honda use in the manual concerning the
> >non-return valve test but I do recall being surprised at them indicating a slow
> >passing back through the valve being acceptable...... Hydraulic pressure being
> >lost moments after engine stop in effect. This was why I commented earlier on
> >the tension wheel getting momentary abuse from the chain on each start.
> > Marshall.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Sorry for starting so many posts.
> > > It keeps me organized and other club members can keep me from doing something
> >stupid to my car!
> > > On my lunch break I pulled the cam chain tensioner apart and checked out how
> >it works.
> > > A simple piston design with a check valve and a return spring.
> > > Oil pressure flows through the 4 holes and unseats the ball check valve. The
> >oil then pushes the piston out, hopefully with enough force to keep the cam
> >chain tight.
> > > The spring is so weak it does nothing except to keep the piston from pushing
> >back when the car is not running.
> > > Problems:
> > > *The tensioner only works when we have full oil pressure on the piston, so
> >the chain is loose on start up.
> > > *O-rings hard and not sealing.
> > > My idea to fix this:
> > > *Use modified stronger return spring.
> > > *New O-rings.
> > > The new spring will now keep tension on the chain when starting up and when
> >we don't have full oil pressure.
> > > From the wear marks on the cam tensioner arm, the piston is "about" a 1/4"
> >out when the chain is tight.
> > > Spring pressure piston full out:
> > > Stock = 2-1/2 pounds.
> > > Modified = 10 pounds.
> > > Spring pressure piston 1/4" out:
> > > Stock = 8 pounds.
> > > Modified = 24 pounds.
> > > See photo section for pictures of my new Stronger spring and new O-rings.
> > > Thoughts?
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell"
> wrote:
> > > > I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> > > > Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> > > > Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed
> >enough, and cheap materials.
> > > > Problems with cam chain components:
> > > > *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets
> >the chain get loose.
> > > > *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> > > > *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin &
> >slider fall out.
> > > > *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> > > > I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> > > > I will use a new chain.
> > > > The wheels and rollers are good.
> > > > The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> > > > I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> > > > I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> > > > Lyle
brad fenn
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:09 am

Re: Cam chain tensioner piston

Post by brad fenn »

I thought they were, but maybe I am wrong. Can somebody shed some light on this,it would be an important thing to know for sure.
From:
"misterpoopoohead@..." To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com Sent:
Fri, July 23, 2010 4:02:49 PM Subject:
Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
Is the Honda 600 engine an "interference" engine? I thought they were non-interference?
Kev Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From:
"lyletrudell" ReplyTo:
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
Brad, that is a scary story, the chain can get loose enough to jump the cam sprocket. Good thing it only jumped a couple teeth or you would be replacing bent valves!
Seems like a lot of slack in the chain.
When I removed my cam, I never removed the tensioner.
The chain had plenty of slack to come up off the cam sprocket and my chain is not worn!
So is 108 links in the chain correct?
Sounds like it's too long to me!
Beware! The chain is only good for about 40-50K miles.
Good info!
If this car was made today, Honda would be busy with recalls!
The warranty was probably 12months/12K miles.
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
, brad fenn wrote:
> Years ago a friend of mine was leaning on the front bumper of one of my 600s in
> which I hadn't set the brake,I had parked it in 1st gear. Well while he was
> leaning against it the car rolled backwards while in 1st gear as I mentioned,
> after that happened, I got back in the car to leave and it wouldn't start, it
> had no compression. Found timing chain jumped a few teeth, but I was able to jump
> it back in place and I was on my way.
> And that's what I had discovered back then, My engine had about 60K miles on
> it,so the chain was getting loose and the tensioner had leaked down, then the
> engine turning backwards just jumped the timing. Was lucky it didn't hit the
> valves.
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: lyletrudell
> To:
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 1:54:50 PM
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> Marshall, I agree.
> The piston does leak down, I tried it.
> With out oil pressure keeping the ball seated, some oil gets past the ball check
> valve and some past the piston to bore clearance.
> So in just a couple minutes with the engine not running the oil pressure would
> be gone and the chain is loose.
> Then on re-start, the guides, sprockets and rollers get abused until the oil
> pressure builds back up again.
> Not good for cam timing either!
> I think the stronger spring will help.
> 24 pounds should keep the chain tight until the oil pressure builds.
> I modified both of my tensioners.
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> > I can't recall the exact phrasing Honda use in the manual concerning the
> >non-return valve test but I do recall being surprised at them indicating a slow
> >passing back through the valve being acceptable.. .... Hydraulic pressure being
> >lost moments after engine stop in effect. This was why I commented earlier on
> >the tension wheel getting momentary abuse from the chain on each start.
> > Marshall.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Sorry for starting so many posts.
> > > It keeps me organized and other club members can keep me from doing something
> >stupid to my car!
> > > On my lunch break I pulled the cam chain tensioner apart and checked out how
> >it works.
> > > A simple piston design with a check valve and a return spring.
> > > Oil pressure flows through the 4 holes and unseats the ball check valve. The
> >oil then pushes the piston out, hopefully with enough force to keep the cam
> >chain tight.
> > > The spring is so weak it does nothing except to keep the piston from pushing
> >back when the car is not running.
> > > Problems:
> > > *The tensioner only works when we have full oil pressure on the piston, so
> >the chain is loose on start up.
> > > *O-rings hard and not sealing.
> > > My idea to fix this:
> > > *Use modified stronger return spring.
> > > *New O-rings.
> > > The new spring will now keep tension on the chain when starting up and when
> >we don't have full oil pressure.
> > > From the wear marks on the cam tensioner arm, the piston is "about" a 1/4"
> >out when the chain is tight.
> > > Spring pressure piston full out:
> > > Stock = 2-1/2 pounds.
> > > Modified = 10 pounds.
> > > Spring pressure piston 1/4" out:
> > > Stock = 8 pounds.
> > > Modified = 24 pounds.
> > > See photo section for pictures of my new Stronger spring and new O-rings.
> > > Thoughts?
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
, "lyletrudell"
> wrote:
> > > > I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> > > > Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> > > > Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not changed
> >enough, and cheap materials.
> > > > Problems with cam chain components:
> > > > *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure lets
> >the chain get loose.
> > > > *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> > > > *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin &
> >slider fall out.
> > > > *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> > > > I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> > > > I will use a new chain.
> > > > The wheels and rollers are good.
> > > > The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> > > > I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> > > > I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> > > > Lyle
zinc2u
Posts: 0
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:45 am

Re: Cam chain tensioner piston

Post by zinc2u »

Lyle,
   108 links on the cam chain is correct.  The ones which Honda used to sell were made by D.I.D. and are the model # 219T.   D.I.D. will still sell the chains but the ones for autos are an endless chain (no master link) and they are designed so they will not come apart/reassemble with a motorcycle/go-kart chain breaker.
Dale
PS  I have had better luck with my cam chains ..... they have lasted me 80 to 100,000 miles.  The chain wear may have more to do with the number of shutdown cycles rather than miles.......i.e. 200 miles in one continuous drive causes less chain wear than driving the car 40 trips at 5 miles per trip.
> The
> chain had plenty of slack to come up off the cam sprocket and my chain is not > worn!
> So is 108 links in the chain correct?
> Sounds like it's too long to
> me!
> Beware! The chain is only good for about 40-50K miles.
> Good
> info!
> If this car was made today, Honda would be busy with recalls!
> The
> warranty was probably 12months/12K
> miles.
> Lyle
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