Cam chain tensioner piston

[Jerry A]

heres a pic of the manual tensioner set up, from what i can translate from the site it is just a stock one modified for the manual adjustment. ive also come across alot of them running newer coil packs with replaceable wires and points eliminator kits with CD , attached pics but not sure if they work with this message board thing , first time trying this .

--- On
Sat, 7/24/10,
lyletrudell

wrote:
> From: lyletrudell
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston > To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, July 24, 2010, 8:33 PM
> Jerry, sure always good to look at other designs.
> The oil pressure system is pretty common on most cars and bikes now.
> Lyle
> --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> , Jerry wrote:
> > I ran across a manual tensioner set up the other day when looking for parts online , would anyone be interested in that set up? Looked to be something that could be reproduced pretty easily
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: misterpoopoohead@...
> > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 5:38 PM
> > To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re:
> [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> > again, bummer!
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > From: goinhm@...
> > Sender:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:24:11 EDT
> > To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > ReplyTo:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner > piston
> > If by interference engine you mean the valve can strike the piston if the cam timing is off,  then it is an interference engine.
> > Dale
> > I thought they were, but maybe I am wrong. Can somebody shed some light on this,it would be an important thing to know for sure.
> > [The entire original message is not included]

Note: 2 image(s) originally linked in this post are no longer available (ec, ec).

[lyletrudell]

Hi Jerry, that is a simple and clever way to do it!
Tighten the bolt until the piston makes contact, then a few turns to put the spring in the middle of its travel?
Or is their no spring at all?
You could check and see how much the chain is wearing also.
I like the Point eliminator kits also.
Does Japan and Europe sell Honda 600 stuff?
Thanks
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Jerry A wrote:
> heres a pic of the manual tensioner set up, from what i can translate from the site it is just a stock one modified for the manual adjustment. ive also come across alot of them running newer coil packs with replaceable wires and points eliminator kits with CD , attached pics but not sure if they work with this message board thing , first time trying this .
> --- On Sat, 7/24/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> From: lyletrudell
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, July 24, 2010, 8:33 PM
> Jerry, sure always good to look at other designs.
> The oil pressure system is pretty common on most cars and bikes now.
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Jerry wrote:
> > I ran across a manual tensioner set up the other day when looking for parts online , would anyone be interested in that set up? Looked to be something that could be reproduced pretty easily
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: misterpoopoohead@
> > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 5:38 PM
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> > again, bummer!
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > From: goinhm@
> > Sender:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:24:11 EDT
> > To: > ReplyTo:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> > If by interference engine you mean the valve can strike the piston if the cam timing is off,  then it is an interference engine.
> > Dale
> > I thought they were, but maybe I am wrong. Can somebody shed some light on this,it would be an important thing to know for sure.
> > [The entire original message is not included]

[Jerry]

Japan sells honda 360 parts. Pretty much the same minus the displacement. They run no springs on the tensioner piston but could be a great way to keep an eye on chain stretch. I also found new tensioner wheels made from a white plastic. They also have metal guide wheel upgrades. My personal favorite was the primary drive dampener eliminators that allowed gear changes to larger gears that increased top speed and eliminate the primary tensioner all together . The site is www.auto-spot.net ,i spent hours looking at all the stuff
From: lyletrudell
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 7:37 PM
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
Hi Jerry, that is a simple and clever way to do it!
Tighten the bolt until the piston makes contact, then a few turns to put the spring in the middle of its travel?
Or is their no spring at all?
You could check and see how much the chain is wearing also.
I like the Point eliminator kits also.
Does Japan and Europe sell Honda 600 stuff?
Thanks Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Jerry A wrote:
> heres a pic of the manual tensioner set up, from what i can translate from the site it is just a stock one modified for the manual adjustment. ive also come across alot of them running newer coil packs with replaceable wires and points eliminator kits with CD , attached pics but not sure if they work with this message board thing , first time trying this .
> �
> �
> �
> �
> �
> �
> �
> �
> �
> �
> �
> �
> --- On Sat, 7/24/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> From: lyletrudell
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, July 24,

[The entire original message is not included]

[friend]

�
Miles;
Didn't you make some of these a while back?
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Jerry
> A
> Sent:
> Saturday, July 24, 2010 7:09 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners]
> Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> heres
> a pic of the manual tensioner set up, from what
> i can translate from the site it is just a stock one modified for the > manual adjustment. ive also come across alot of them running newer coil > packs with replaceable wires and points eliminator kits with CD , > attached pics but not sure if they work with this message board thing , > first time trying this .
> --- On
> Sat, 7/24/10,
> lyletrudell
>
> wrote:
> > From:
> > lyletrudell
> > Subject:
> > [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston > > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Saturday, July
> > 24, 2010, 8:33 PM
> > Jerry, sure always good to look at other designs.
> > The oil
> > pressure system is pretty common on most cars and bikes > > now.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > ,
> > Jerry wrote:
> > > I ran across a
> > manual tensioner set up the other day when looking for parts online , > > would anyone be interested in that set up? Looked to be something that > > could be reproduced pretty easily
> > > -----Original
> > Message-----
> > > From: misterpoopoohead@ ...
> > > Sent:
> > Friday, July 23, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > To:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner > > piston
> > > again, bummer!
> > > Sent
> > from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> > > From: goinhm@...
> > Sender:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:24:11 EDT
> > > To: > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > ReplyTo:
> > anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner > > piston
> > > If by interference engine you
> > mean the valve can strike the piston if the cam timing is off, > > then it is an interference engine.
> > > Dale
> > I thought they were, but maybe I am wrong. Can somebody shed some > > light on this,it would be an important thing to know for sure.
> > > [The entire original message is not
> > included]

Note: 2 image(s) originally linked in this post are no longer available (ec, ec).

[friend]

Lyle;
    I don't know about putting a stronger spring in the hydraulic tensioner piston.  Or if it will make any difference.  A stretched cam chain is still stretched.  It will be longer and eventually cause the engine to be out of time or break.  I have not done any tests on the lower tensioner wheel as I always understood it was there to keep the chain from slapping against the cylinder walls and dampen any vibration that might start at high RPM's.  I have seen the bolt in the tensioner mod a number of years back.  I believe it was in one of Miles Novelty News papers.   Always chose to change out the cam chain and clean the hydraulic tensioner assembly before reinstalling it.
    I always found a bunch of junk behind the piston and spring, the O rings were hard, cracked or missing.  And, a bunch of RTV trying to seal it to the case.   All of the engines were in need of rebuilding the upper end and some even more repair.   The short cut or temporary fix seems to have been the more costly way to go in the end.
Bill

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> lyletrudell
> Sent:
> Saturday, July 24, 2010 9:25 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] Re:
> Cam chain tensioner piston
> Bill, too much information is always a good thing.
> I have one of your
> cam chains, it's a high quality chain.
> I will be using it in my orange
> coupe, don't want to use my old chain after reading about all the problems > they have!
> The chain wear test you did is a clever way to keep an eye on > our chains, thanks.
> I agree any Honda with 40K or more miles on a chain
> should replace it, simple to do and pretty cheap also.
> Bill, what is
> your thought on the tensioner spring?
> Oil pressure is lower on our used
> engines.
> Stock spring is weak from heat and wear.
> I think it needs to be
> stronger.
> How much?
> Lyle
> --- In
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ,
> wrote:
> > I apologize in advance for the
> long wind....
> > I use a heavy duty chain, every link is labeled
> by the manufacturer and they
> > sell a split chain and master link. The
> pins are slightly larger than the
> > factory chain which takes up the
> slack in the warn area between the cam
> > teeth. When assembled they are
> tight, with little slack for the tensioner
> > to take up.
> > The first question is: - how do we know how much the cam > chain has > > stretched? Second: - what do we do about it? The first is > really simple, > > With the engine off, (Remove the oil fill cap) using a > flash light move > > the crank shaft until the timing notch on the cam is > centered in the cam > > bearing notch. Then look at the notch on the > timing pulley, it should be > > on the "T". Now move the pulley back > toward the "F" mark on the same > > housing as the "T" mark. The cam notch > should move the same distance as the > > pulley notch. If it doesn't, > measure the distance from the "T" mark to > > where the cam starts to > move. Add that to one and one sixteenth inches and > > you will know how > much your cam chain has stretched.
> > When will this take place?
> Depending on the use you give your Honda 600,
> > rough or with care. The
> chain will give the rough user, (tire spins, 0-65
> > down the free-way or
> street) about 40.000 miles. If you warm the engine up
> > and use
> discretion in your driving habits, leaving the jackrabbit starts to
> the Jack Rabbits. Around, 65.000 miles can be obtained. However, you
> should check this every time you adjust the timing, set the spark, > change > > the plugs etc...
> > Now you say, Bill how did you
> come to this conclusion? Back in 1990, I
> > built an engine in a Coupe
> (using used but good parts, changing all the
> > seals, o-rings and
> gaskets with new and making sure the dampers and bearings > > were all > within required tolerances or were new, and the timing chain was > > new > Honda Original chain) and ran it with an oil cooler, pulling the > engine > > and measuring everything (yes everything) every 10 thousand > miles.
> > At 40K I found that the engine cases were clean and shiny. I > opened the > > spin on filter at every oil changing and noted the contents > using a magnet > > to locate any metal filings if any. Nothing was found > out of the ordinary.
> > Although at about 30K in the test, I found that
> the primary transmission
> > shaft ball bearing keeper was showing wear as
> was the bearing race. I
> > changed them out and made sure the synchro
> lash was good and sealed it up
> > for another 10K.
> > While
> installing the cam chain at the 40K mark I noted that there was
> considerable slack in the chain. The cam teeth valleys didn't indicate > any > > notable wear when measured but the chain was noticeably lose. And, > while > > setting the chain I noticed that the timing mark could be > rotated backwards > > toward the F mark and the cam was not moving. I > pulled everything apart and > > measured the cam chain and sure enough > there was stretching. Put the engine > > back together and tried the T to > F mark measure again and the mark went > > almost two thirds of the way > toward the F mark on the stator housing. I > > knew my cam chain tensioner > was good as were the other components, and > > started running it again.
> However this time I watched the timing chain wear
> > by checking the
> travel of the timing mark. At about 45K the timing mark was > > just > getting to the F mark on the case. During this time I found the heavy
> duty chain and rather than pull the engine again I changed out the cam > chain > > from the top of the engine. And, then measured the 45K cam chain > and found > > it to be at 1 3/16 inches. So how to you measure the timing > chain to figure > > wear.
> > There are a couple of ways and the Honda
> Shop manual has another. But I
> > used one of the other ways. I double
> the chain with the pins laying flat
> > and arc the chain, resting ends
> against a straight line taking the greatest
> > distance from the center
> of the chain between the pin ends. New is 1 1/16
> > inch. At about 40K my
> cam chain was showing 1 5/32 inch. and at 45K it
> > measured at 1 3/16
> inch. Since this time I have used the 1 3/16 inch
> > measure as a
> benchmark to changing out a cam chain. Have I opened engines > > with cam > chains having more wear? Yes, the record is almost 2 inches. And, > > yes > it had jumped time and bent valves.
> > This test was done between 1990
> and 1993, I used the Coupe as a daily
> > driver taking the freeways every
> chance I could. Several Honda 600's I
> > owned were running oil coolers
> and I put them on other cars that got close
> > to my garage. But after
> seeing the cars come in with timing chains that
> > measured between 1
> 3/16 to 1 1/2 inches, with many of them jumping time. I
> > change out all
> chains that have reached the "F" mark, and every one has > > measured > within that range.
> > Note; As has already been discussed in the group
> these last couple of
> > days, the tensioner and how it is pumping up is a
> factor. But, I would use
> > caution when putting a heaver spring in the
> plunger of the hydraulic
> > tensioner. To much resistance on the chain
> will cause it to stretch and
> > chew up the lower tensioner wheel too.
> Also, make sure the engine was just
> > running before making the timing
> mark test as there could be reduced tension
> > on the chain, not because
> of oil pressure but I would think having all the
> > metal warmed up would
> give a better indication of where the chain is at.
> > So, take several
> measures with the timing mark before just pulling your
> > chain. But, if
> it is getting close to the "F" mark and timing the engine > > seems like a > weekly task, then I would think about changing the cam chain > > before it > jumps time and causes a catastrophic event.
> > You might ask why
> I stopped at 45k on the engine, well, I sold the car.
> > Last I heard it
> was still running in LA. If you think it's your car, send > > me the > engine number and I will let you know.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of goinhm@...
> > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 4:20 PM
> > To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> > Lyle,
> > 108 links on the cam chain is
> correct. The ones which Honda used to
> > sell were made by D.I.D. and are
> the model # 219T. D.I.D. will still sell
> > the chains but the ones for
> autos are an endless chain (no master link) and
> > they are designed so
> they will not come apart/reassemble with a
> > motorcycle/go-kart chain
> breaker.
> > Dale
> > PS I have had better luck with
> my cam chains ..... they have lasted me 80
> > to 100,000 miles. The chain
> wear may have more to do with the number of
> > shutdown cycles rather
> than miles.......i.e. 200 miles in one continuous
> > drive causes less
> chain wear than driving the car 40 trips at 5 miles per
> > trip.
> > The chain had plenty of slack to come up off the cam sprocket and my > chain > > is not worn!
> > So is 108 links in the chain
> correct?
> > Sounds like it's too long to me!
> > Beware! The
> chain is only good for about 40-50K miles.
> > Good info!
> > If this
> car was made today, Honda would be busy with recalls!
> > The warranty was
> probably 12months/12K miles.
> > Lyle

[lyletrudell]

Hi Dale, one thing to remember about the spring pressure. The tensioner arm pivots on the bottom, the piston pushes in the middle and the roller is on top. So we have a mechanical leverage loss of about 1/2!
Engine not running:
*The stock arm has 2-4 pounds of force on a new chain.
*My modified arm has 7-12 pounds.
Both easily pushed back with one finger!
Don't know much about hydraulics, but here I go...
If we have a 1/2 diameter piston, the area in square inches is the radius squared times Pi.
0.25 X 0.25 = 0.0625 multiplied by 3.1416 = about (.20)
Now if we have 25 PSI oil pressure pushing on it.
We should be putting out about 5 pounds of force.
Then we cut this in have for leverage loss.
So about 2.5
Add the the spring pressure and we have a total of:
Engine running:
*Stock 4.5 to 6.5 pounds of pressure.
*Modified 9.5 to 14.5 pounds of pressure.
The Honda engineers wanted about 5-7 pounds pushing on the chain.
So we need a spring that puts out about 5-7.
Yep, I like figuring stuff out.
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, goinhm@... wrote:
> Hi Lyle,
> I was thinking about your modified cam chain tensioner and have the
> following comments;
> 1) the tensioner is to remove chain slack. Ideally, it should move far
> enough to take up the slack and put no additional pressure on the chain.
> Putting any excess pressure will lead to faster chain wear and stretching.
> 2) the hydraulic cam chain tensioner behaves like a shock absorber
> ....... it tries to dampen out any rapid changes. A force pushing against the
> plunger which is small gets a small counteracting force. A force pushing
> against the plunger which is large gets an initial counteracting force which
> is also very large and then starts to taper off ..... just like the
> hydraulic shock absorber.
> 3) before you start the engine, the tension on the cam chain is
> generated by spring action. When you do start the engine, the initial rpm is
> probably in the 1100 to 2500 rpm range depending on where the choke is set.
> When you do start the engine, the rpms are probably not being reved up and
> down rapidly in the first several seconds and the engine is not under any
> serious load. In the first few seconds while the oil pressure builds on the
> plunger, I think the spring pressure should be fine for taking up the
> chain slack. You apparently think differently.
> 4) I am thinking the spring pressure is what is taking up the slack on
> the chain and the hydraulic pressure is what is keeping the plunger from
> being easily depressed as the chain exerts a force against the plunger.
> 5) If you change the spring pressure to 10 pounds, now instead of having
> a constant force of 2 to 8 pounds on the chain, you now have a force from
> 10 to 24 pounds (these numbers are your measurements on the plunger
> position....thanks for doing this test). I think this higher constant force
> will increase the wear on the cam chain.
> 6) the tensioner is a system which consists of a spring plus a damper
> (similar to a shock absorber with a spring coil around it). You don't like
> the way the damper is behaving and are trying to correct it by changing the
> spring.
> Those are my thoughts for tonight. Thanks for passing along your ideas
> and test results.
> Dale
> Sorry for starting so many posts.
> It keeps me organized and other club members can keep me from doing
> something stupid to my car!
> On my lunch break I pulled the cam chain tensioner apart and checked out
> how it works.
> A simple piston design with a check valve and a return spring.
> Oil pressure flows through the 4 holes and unseats the ball check valve.
> The oil then pushes the piston out, hopefully with enough force to keep the
> cam chain tight.
> The spring is so weak it does nothing except to keep the piston from
> pushing back when the car is not running.
> Problems:
> *The tensioner only works when we have full oil pressure on the piston, so
> the chain is loose on start up.
> *O-rings hard and not sealing.
> My idea to fix this:
> *Use modified stronger return spring.
> *New O-rings.
> The new spring will now keep tension on the chain when starting up and
> when we don't have full oil pressure.
> From the wear marks on the cam tensioner arm, the piston is "about" a 1/4"
> out when the chain is tight.
> Spring pressure piston full out:
> Stock = 2-1/2 pounds.
> Modified = 10 pounds.
> Spring pressure piston 1/4" out:
> Stock = 8 pounds.
> Modified = 24 pounds.
> See photo section for pictures of my new Stronger spring and new O-rings.
> Thoughts?
> Lyle
> --- In
_anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
_
> (mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
) , "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > I have taken 3 Honda 600 engines apart!
> > Simple design like a motorcycle, but clever.
> > Most of these problems are from high RPM, low oil pressure, oil not
> changed enough, and cheap materials.
> > Problems with cam chain components:
> > *Cam chain tensioner piston assembly, weak spring and low oil pressure
> lets the chain get loose.
> > *Cam tensioner wheels made of rubber and wear.
> > *Slider steel pins vibrate and wears the aluminum casting until the pin
> & slider fall out.
> > *Small 219 chain stretches, replace every 40K....?
> > I have fixed the slider problem with JB weld.
> > I will use a new chain.
> > The wheels and rollers are good.
> > The piston assembly will get a new stronger spring and new o-rings.
> > I see these areas still being a problem in the future.
> > I will also be using 20w-50 oil and an oil cooler.
> > Lyle

[lyletrudell]

Hi Bill, thanks for the reply and info.
All the new parts we put in our tensioner and guides mean nothing if we run a stretched cam chain. It will wear the sprockets and damage all the guides and rollers at least. One of my cams is shot because the sprocket is worn from a loose/worn chain.
Like you have found, my engines also had a bunch of junk behind the piston and spring, O rings hard & cracked.
I also think my stock spring is weak from heat and compressing thousands of times over the years.
I will get another spring that will give me 4-7 at the tensioner wheel. Probably close to what was stock.
Anyone reading this post should know that changing the tensioner spring alone will not solve anything.
I hate doing things over, so this Honda engine will be a quality rebuild, all parts will be disassembled, cleaned and re-built.
I will post what I find to help myself and others.
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Lyle;
> I don't know about putting a stronger spring in the hydraulic tensioner
> piston. Or if it will make any difference. A stretched cam chain is still
> stretched. It will be longer and eventually cause the engine to be out of
> time or break. I have not done any tests on the lower tensioner wheel as I
> always understood it was there to keep the chain from slapping against the
> cylinder walls and dampen any vibration that might start at high RPM's. I
> have seen the bolt in the tensioner mod a number of years back. I believe
> it was in one of Miles Novelty News papers. Always chose to change out the
> cam chain and clean the hydraulic tensioner assembly before reinstalling it.
> I always found a bunch of junk behind the piston and spring, the O rings
> were hard, cracked or missing. And, a bunch of RTV trying to seal it to the
> case. All of the engines were in need of rebuilding the upper end and some
> even more repair. The short cut or temporary fix seems to have been the
> more costly way to go in the end.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of lyletrudell
> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 9:25 AM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> Bill, too much information is always a good thing.
> I have one of your cam chains, it's a high quality chain.
> I will be using it in my orange coupe, don't want to use my old chain
> after reading about all the problems they have!
> The chain wear test you did is a clever way to keep an eye on our chains,
> thanks.
> I agree any Honda with 40K or more miles on a chain should replace it,
> simple to do and pretty cheap also.
> Bill, what is your thought on the tensioner spring?
> Oil pressure is lower on our used engines.
> Stock spring is weak from heat and wear.
> I think it needs to be stronger.
> How much?
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> > I apologize in advance for the long wind....
> > I use a heavy duty chain, every link is labeled by the manufacturer and
> they
> > sell a split chain and master link. The pins are slightly larger than
> the
> > factory chain which takes up the slack in the warn area between the cam
> > teeth. When assembled they are tight, with little slack for the
> tensioner
> > to take up.
> > The first question is: - how do we know how much the cam chain has
> > stretched? Second: - what do we do about it? The first is really simple,
> > With the engine off, (Remove the oil fill cap) using a flash light move
> > the crank shaft until the timing notch on the cam is centered in the cam
> > bearing notch. Then look at the notch on the timing pulley, it should be
> > on the "T". Now move the pulley back toward the "F" mark on the same
> > housing as the "T" mark. The cam notch should move the same distance as
> the
> > pulley notch. If it doesn't, measure the distance from the "T" mark to
> > where the cam starts to move. Add that to one and one sixteenth inches
> and
> > you will know how much your cam chain has stretched.
> > When will this take place? Depending on the use you give your Honda 600,
> > rough or with care. The chain will give the rough user, (tire spins,
> 0-65
> > down the free-way or street) about 40.000 miles. If you warm the engine
> up
> > and use discretion in your driving habits, leaving the jackrabbit starts
> to
> > the Jack Rabbits. Around, 65.000 miles can be obtained. However, you
> > should check this every time you adjust the timing, set the spark,
> change
> > the plugs etc...
> > Now you say, Bill how did you come to this conclusion? Back in 1990, I
> > built an engine in a Coupe (using used but good parts, changing all the
> > seals, o-rings and gaskets with new and making sure the dampers and
> bearings
> > were all within required tolerances or were new, and the timing chain
> was
> > new Honda Original chain) and ran it with an oil cooler, pulling the
> engine
> > and measuring everything (yes everything) every 10 thousand miles.
> > At 40K I found that the engine cases were clean and shiny. I opened the
> > spin on filter at every oil changing and noted the contents using a
> magnet
> > to locate any metal filings if any. Nothing was found out of the
> ordinary.
> > Although at about 30K in the test, I found that the primary transmission
> > shaft ball bearing keeper was showing wear as was the bearing race. I
> > changed them out and made sure the synchro lash was good and sealed it
> up
> > for another 10K.
> > While installing the cam chain at the 40K mark I noted that there was
> > considerable slack in the chain. The cam teeth valleys didn't indicate
> any
> > notable wear when measured but the chain was noticeably lose. And, while
> > setting the chain I noticed that the timing mark could be rotated
> backwards
> > toward the F mark and the cam was not moving. I pulled everything apart
> and
> > measured the cam chain and sure enough there was stretching. Put the
> engine
> > back together and tried the T to F mark measure again and the mark went
> > almost two thirds of the way toward the F mark on the stator housing. I
> > knew my cam chain tensioner was good as were the other components, and
> > started running it again. However this time I watched the timing chain
> wear
> > by checking the travel of the timing mark. At about 45K the timing mark
> was
> > just getting to the F mark on the case. During this time I found the
> heavy
> > duty chain and rather than pull the engine again I changed out the cam
> chain
> > from the top of the engine. And, then measured the 45K cam chain and
> found
> > it to be at 1 3/16 inches. So how to you measure the timing chain to
> figure
> > wear.
> > There are a couple of ways and the Honda Shop manual has another. But I
> > used one of the other ways. I double the chain with the pins laying flat
> > and arc the chain, resting ends against a straight line taking the
> greatest
> > distance from the center of the chain between the pin ends. New is 1
> 1/16
> > inch. At about 40K my cam chain was showing 1 5/32 inch. and at 45K it
> > measured at 1 3/16 inch. Since this time I have used the 1 3/16 inch
> > measure as a benchmark to changing out a cam chain. Have I opened
> engines
> > with cam chains having more wear? Yes, the record is almost 2 inches.
> And,
> > yes it had jumped time and bent valves.
> > This test was done between 1990 and 1993, I used the Coupe as a daily
> > driver taking the freeways every chance I could. Several Honda 600's I
> > owned were running oil coolers and I put them on other cars that got
> close
> > to my garage. But after seeing the cars come in with timing chains that
> > measured between 1 3/16 to 1 1/2 inches, with many of them jumping time.
> I
> > change out all chains that have reached the "F" mark, and every one has
> > measured within that range.
> > Note; As has already been discussed in the group these last couple of
> > days, the tensioner and how it is pumping up is a factor. But, I would
> use
> > caution when putting a heaver spring in the plunger of the hydraulic
> > tensioner. To much resistance on the chain will cause it to stretch and
> > chew up the lower tensioner wheel too. Also, make sure the engine was
> just
> > running before making the timing mark test as there could be reduced
> tension
> > on the chain, not because of oil pressure but I would think having all
> the
> > metal warmed up would give a better indication of where the chain is at.
> > So, take several measures with the timing mark before just pulling your
> > chain. But, if it is getting close to the "F" mark and timing the engine
> > seems like a weekly task, then I would think about changing the cam
> chain
> > before it jumps time and causes a catastrophic event.
> > You might ask why I stopped at 45k on the engine, well, I sold the car.
> > Last I heard it was still running in LA. If you think it's your car,
> send
> > me the engine number and I will let you know.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of goinhm@
> > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 4:20 PM
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> > Lyle,
> > 108 links on the cam chain is correct. The ones which Honda used to
> > sell were made by D.I.D. and are the model # 219T. D.I.D. will still
> sell
> > the chains but the ones for autos are an endless chain (no master link)
> and
> > they are designed so they will not come apart/reassemble with a
> > motorcycle/go-kart chain breaker.
> > Dale
> > PS I have had better luck with my cam chains ..... they have lasted me
> 80
> > to 100,000 miles. The chain wear may have more to do with the number of
> > shutdown cycles rather than miles.......i.e. 200 miles in one continuous
> > drive causes less chain wear than driving the car 40 trips at 5 miles
> per
> > trip.
> > The chain had plenty of slack to come up off the cam sprocket and my
> chain
> > is not worn!
> > So is 108 links in the chain correct?
> > Sounds like it's too long to me!
> > Beware! The chain is only good for about 40-50K miles.
> > Good info!
> > If this car was made today, Honda would be busy with recalls!
> > The warranty was probably 12months/12K miles.
> > Lyle

[lyletrudell]

Thanks Jerry, I will check out the site, sounds like some cool after market parts.
I have gotten spoiled from being able to get any part I want for my Triumph TR3 and Opel GT.
Check out Moss motors
http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProd ... exID=36459
These Honda's are so hard to get stuff for and they are rare, I have not seen one in Florida in 15 years!
Luckily a few other people have been looking at these problems for years. Good to know we are not totally alone in our restoration project.
I just want to fix the body and rebuild my engine, but I want it to be a reliable and fun ride when it hit's the road!
Hopefully this winter.
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Jerry wrote:
> Japan sells honda 360 parts. Pretty much the same minus the displacement. They run no springs on the tensioner piston but could be a great way to keep an eye on chain stretch. I also found new tensioner wheels made from a white plastic. They also have metal guide wheel upgrades. My personal favorite was the primary drive dampener eliminators that allowed gear changes to larger gears that increased top speed and eliminate the primary tensioner all together . The site is www.auto-spot.net ,i spent hours looking at all the stuff
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lyletrudell
> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2010 7:37 PM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> Hi Jerry, that is a simple and clever way to do it!
> Tighten the bolt until the piston makes contact, then a few turns to put the spring in the middle of its travel?
> Or is their no spring at all?
> You could check and see how much the chain is wearing also.
> I like the Point eliminator kits also.
> Does Japan and Europe sell Honda 600 stuff?
> Thanks
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, Jerry A wrote:
> > heres a pic of the manual tensioner set up, from what i can translate from the site it is just a stock one modified for the manual adjustment. ive also come across alot of them running newer coil packs with replaceable wires and points eliminator kits with CD , attached pics but not sure if they work with this message board thing , first time trying this .
> > --- On Sat, 7/24/10, lyletrudell wrote:
> > From: lyletrudell
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: Cam chain tensioner piston
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Saturday, July 24,
> [The entire original message is not included]