Hi guys. There's a little sarcasm in the subject of this posting. I tried jumping my cam chain one tooth back to retard the timing as I thought it was possibly advanced by a tooth. Still ran, still backfired, and I got a compression reading of only 65 psi. At least I got 65 on each cylinder, so they are both performing at the same level. :)
Today, I disassembled the upper part of the engine from the heads up. Basically, I just now took the heads off.
My pulley is definitely put on correctly. The cylinder is perfectly at tdc when the notch is pointing at the "T" on the block. There was a decent amount of carbon on the top of the cylinder and the combustion chamber of the heads, but not too terribly bad.
Any way, I am wondering if anyone has any pictures of this elusive timing notch on the cam shaft that must appear in the driver's side bearing housing for the cam shaft.
I can not see it on mine, and the pictures in the shop manual did not help much. Or I'm simply not looking at the right picture... I read the document file on here about installing the cam shaft properly, but I must be doing something wrong.
Tommorrow, I will also check the condition of the valve seats. I lapped them when I rebuilt the engine a while ago, so I hope they are not the problem. Also, the valves are not bent or burned or cracked, so I am hoping that the valve face and seat is not the problem.
So like I mentioned, any pictures of a properly installed cam shaft with the notch or level bar thing in the correct position would be extremely helpful since I can't seem to find it.
thanks,
Mike.
Is 65 psi compression too low??
-
Eric Geiger
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:38 am
Re: Is 65 psi compression too low??
Mike I'm sending you a photo of the notch now to your personal email
Eric J. Geiger
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egeiger@...
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Eric J. Geiger
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PRG Nocturne
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egeiger@...
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On May 14, 2013, at 11:27 PM, "Mike" wrote:
Hi guys. There's a little sarcasm in the subject of this posting. I tried jumping my cam chain one tooth back to retard the timing as I thought it was possibly advanced by a tooth. Still ran, still backfired, and I got a compression reading of only 65 psi.
At least I got 65 on each cylinder, so they are both performing at the same level. :)
Today, I disassembled the upper part of the engine from the heads up. Basically, I just now took the heads off.
My pulley is definitely put on correctly. The cylinder is perfectly at tdc when the notch is pointing at the "T" on the block. There was a decent amount of carbon on the top of the cylinder and the combustion chamber of the heads, but not too terribly bad.
Any way, I am wondering if anyone has any pictures of this elusive timing notch on the cam shaft that must appear in the driver's side bearing housing for the cam shaft.
I can not see it on mine, and the pictures in the shop manual did not help much. Or I'm simply not looking at the right picture... I read the document file on here about installing the cam shaft properly, but I must be doing something wrong.
Tommorrow, I will also check the condition of the valve seats. I lapped them when I rebuilt the engine a while ago, so I hope they are not the problem. Also, the valves are not bent or burned or cracked, so I am hoping that the valve face and seat is not the problem.
So like I mentioned, any pictures of a properly installed cam shaft with the notch or level bar thing in the correct position would be extremely helpful since I can't seem to find it.
thanks,
Mike.
-
richmccolman
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:47 am
Re: Is 65 psi compression too low??
Hi Mike,
I believe that the mark on the camshaft to display the proper timing position is on the passenger (right) side of the camshaft's gear. You can see this on page 4-27 of the sedan shop manual. If you don't have it, you can download it here:
http://www.honda600coupe.com/Manuals,_b ... ments.html
The mark -- a line across the gear -- should be parallel to the top of the cam housing when the notch on the crankshaft-mounted fan pulley aligns with the "T" mark on the outside of the alternator cover.
Richard
I believe that the mark on the camshaft to display the proper timing position is on the passenger (right) side of the camshaft's gear. You can see this on page 4-27 of the sedan shop manual. If you don't have it, you can download it here:
http://www.honda600coupe.com/Manuals,_b ... ments.html
The mark -- a line across the gear -- should be parallel to the top of the cam housing when the notch on the crankshaft-mounted fan pulley aligns with the "T" mark on the outside of the alternator cover.
Richard
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Mike" wrote:
> Hi guys. There's a little sarcasm in the subject of this posting. I tried jumping my cam chain one tooth back to retard the timing as I thought it was possibly advanced by a tooth. Still ran, still backfired, and I got a compression reading of only 65 psi. At least I got 65 on each cylinder, so they are both performing at the same level. :)
> Today, I disassembled the upper part of the engine from the heads up. Basically, I just now took the heads off.
> My pulley is definitely put on correctly. The cylinder is perfectly at tdc when the notch is pointing at the "T" on the block. There was a decent amount of carbon on the top of the cylinder and the combustion chamber of the heads, but not too terribly bad.
> Any way, I am wondering if anyone has any pictures of this elusive timing notch on the cam shaft that must appear in the driver's side bearing housing for the cam shaft.
> I can not see it on mine, and the pictures in the shop manual did not help much. Or I'm simply not looking at the right picture... I read the document file on here about installing the cam shaft properly, but I must be doing something wrong.
> Tommorrow, I will also check the condition of the valve seats. I lapped them when I rebuilt the engine a while ago, so I hope they are not the problem. Also, the valves are not bent or burned or cracked, so I am hoping that the valve face and seat is not the problem.
> So like I mentioned, any pictures of a properly installed cam shaft with the notch or level bar thing in the correct position would be extremely helpful since I can't seem to find it.
> thanks,
> Mike.
Re: Is 65 psi compression too low??
Thanks Richard and Eric, The flat mark on the gear is what I used before, and that mark coincides with the mark in the picture that you sent me, Eric.
That means my cam shaft timing was set correctly when I very first assembled the engine. I inspected the faces of my valves and their seats and they appear to be fine - no cracks or burned wholes or anything like that. I'm going to go ahead and re-assemble using the notches and level mark to set my camshaft and do another compression test.
I was definitely one tooth off when I got the 65 psi reading, but I believe I only got 90 even before I changed it by a tooth. There's a chance I forgot to fully open the throttle when I got that reading, but I'm not sure. I definitely will full open the throttle this time.
Also Bill, I checked the cam chain slipper and it is actually in a good position and does not appear to be pushing on the cam chain a lot. Certainly not enough to alter the timing.
thanks,
Mike.
That means my cam shaft timing was set correctly when I very first assembled the engine. I inspected the faces of my valves and their seats and they appear to be fine - no cracks or burned wholes or anything like that. I'm going to go ahead and re-assemble using the notches and level mark to set my camshaft and do another compression test.
I was definitely one tooth off when I got the 65 psi reading, but I believe I only got 90 even before I changed it by a tooth. There's a chance I forgot to fully open the throttle when I got that reading, but I'm not sure. I definitely will full open the throttle this time.
Also Bill, I checked the cam chain slipper and it is actually in a good position and does not appear to be pushing on the cam chain a lot. Certainly not enough to alter the timing.
thanks,
Mike.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> I believe that the mark on the camshaft to display the proper timing position is on the passenger (right) side of the camshaft's gear. You can see this on page 4-27 of the sedan shop manual. If you don't have it, you can download it here:
http://www.honda600coupe.com/Manuals,_b ... ments.html
> The mark -- a line across the gear -- should be parallel to the top of the cam housing when the notch on the crankshaft-mounted fan pulley aligns with the "T" mark on the outside of the alternator cover.
> Richard
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Mike" wrote:
> > Hi guys. There's a little sarcasm in the subject of this posting. I tried jumping my cam chain one tooth back to retard the timing as I thought it was possibly advanced by a tooth. Still ran, still backfired, and I got a compression reading of only 65 psi. At least I got 65 on each cylinder, so they are both performing at the same level. :)
> > Today, I disassembled the upper part of the engine from the heads up. Basically, I just now took the heads off.
> > My pulley is definitely put on correctly. The cylinder is perfectly at tdc when the notch is pointing at the "T" on the block. There was a decent amount of carbon on the top of the cylinder and the combustion chamber of the heads, but not too terribly bad.
> > Any way, I am wondering if anyone has any pictures of this elusive timing notch on the cam shaft that must appear in the driver's side bearing housing for the cam shaft.
> > I can not see it on mine, and the pictures in the shop manual did not help much. Or I'm simply not looking at the right picture... I read the document file on here about installing the cam shaft properly, but I must be doing something wrong.
> > Tommorrow, I will also check the condition of the valve seats. I lapped them when I rebuilt the engine a while ago, so I hope they are not the problem. Also, the valves are not bent or burned or cracked, so I am hoping that the valve face and seat is not the problem.
> > So like I mentioned, any pictures of a properly installed cam shaft with the notch or level bar thing in the correct position would be extremely helpful since I can't seem to find it.
> > thanks,
> > Mike.
Re: Is 65 psi compression too low??
I think I found the problem.
Here's what happened: I reassembled most of the engine and made absolutely certain that I had the cam timed properly with the crankshaft. I used both the level mark and the notch on the driver's side of the cam shaft.
Then I did a compression test with out the carb on so that I would really be at full throttle. Guess what I got. 80 psi passenger and 85 psi driver side. I was kind of sad. Then I sat there and stared at it for a long time.
After a while, I started thinking about all the carbon I saw on the combustion chamber, and I wondered if it could effect the valve seats. I had already inspected the valve seats while I had the head off, and I thought they were ok, but I did not fully remove the valves, I only pushed them open a little bit.
Then I remembered what another person on here had said about shooting oil into the combustion chamber to see if you had bad rings during a compression test.
I still had the carb off, so I shot a bunch of oil all over the intake valve and did another compression test. 150 PSI!! Rock and Roll.
So here's my question: Do I need to remove the valves and do a full valve face and valve seat job? They do not look like they are super bad. I think it is just a bunch of carbon build up.
I was thinking maybe I could re-assemble and squirt some water into the intake while it is revved up and warm, or maybe squirt some Sea-Foam into the intake. Would that clean up my valve and combustion chamber enough?
Also, I am not sure if all the carbon is due to a lean fuel mixture and I need to have my carb worked on or if it is due to excessive oil coming down the intake valve stem. What do you guys think about that?
The piston rings are still somewhat new(less than 6000 miles since the rebuild). So I don't think it is blown rings.
It looks like there is carbon build up in the combustion chamber, and on the intake manifold side of the intake valve.
Any advice is good advice. Sorry I wrote so much to read, but thank you in advance for you replies.
Mike.
Here's what happened: I reassembled most of the engine and made absolutely certain that I had the cam timed properly with the crankshaft. I used both the level mark and the notch on the driver's side of the cam shaft.
Then I did a compression test with out the carb on so that I would really be at full throttle. Guess what I got. 80 psi passenger and 85 psi driver side. I was kind of sad. Then I sat there and stared at it for a long time.
After a while, I started thinking about all the carbon I saw on the combustion chamber, and I wondered if it could effect the valve seats. I had already inspected the valve seats while I had the head off, and I thought they were ok, but I did not fully remove the valves, I only pushed them open a little bit.
Then I remembered what another person on here had said about shooting oil into the combustion chamber to see if you had bad rings during a compression test.
I still had the carb off, so I shot a bunch of oil all over the intake valve and did another compression test. 150 PSI!! Rock and Roll.
So here's my question: Do I need to remove the valves and do a full valve face and valve seat job? They do not look like they are super bad. I think it is just a bunch of carbon build up.
I was thinking maybe I could re-assemble and squirt some water into the intake while it is revved up and warm, or maybe squirt some Sea-Foam into the intake. Would that clean up my valve and combustion chamber enough?
Also, I am not sure if all the carbon is due to a lean fuel mixture and I need to have my carb worked on or if it is due to excessive oil coming down the intake valve stem. What do you guys think about that?
The piston rings are still somewhat new(less than 6000 miles since the rebuild). So I don't think it is blown rings.
It looks like there is carbon build up in the combustion chamber, and on the intake manifold side of the intake valve.
Any advice is good advice. Sorry I wrote so much to read, but thank you in advance for you replies.
Mike.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Mike" wrote:
> Thanks Richard and Eric, The flat mark on the gear is what I used before, and that mark coincides with the mark in the picture that you sent me, Eric.
> That means my cam shaft timing was set correctly when I very first assembled the engine. I inspected the faces of my valves and their seats and they appear to be fine - no cracks or burned wholes or anything like that. I'm going to go ahead and re-assemble using the notches and level mark to set my camshaft and do another compression test.
> I was definitely one tooth off when I got the 65 psi reading, but I believe I only got 90 even before I changed it by a tooth. There's a chance I forgot to fully open the throttle when I got that reading, but I'm not sure. I definitely will full open the throttle this time.
> Also Bill, I checked the cam chain slipper and it is actually in a good position and does not appear to be pushing on the cam chain a lot. Certainly not enough to alter the timing.
> thanks,
> Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> > I believe that the mark on the camshaft to display the proper timing position is on the passenger (right) side of the camshaft's gear. You can see this on page 4-27 of the sedan shop manual. If you don't have it, you can download it here:
http://www.honda600coupe.com/Manuals,_b ... ments.html
> > The mark -- a line across the gear -- should be parallel to the top of the cam housing when the notch on the crankshaft-mounted fan pulley aligns with the "T" mark on the outside of the alternator cover.
> > Richard
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Mike" wrote:
> > > Hi guys. There's a little sarcasm in the subject of this posting. I tried jumping my cam chain one tooth back to retard the timing as I thought it was possibly advanced by a tooth. Still ran, still backfired, and I got a compression reading of only 65 psi. At least I got 65 on each cylinder, so they are both performing at the same level. :)
> > > Today, I disassembled the upper part of the engine from the heads up. Basically, I just now took the heads off.
> > > My pulley is definitely put on correctly. The cylinder is perfectly at tdc when the notch is pointing at the "T" on the block. There was a decent amount of carbon on the top of the cylinder and the combustion chamber of the heads, but not too terribly bad.
> > > Any way, I am wondering if anyone has any pictures of this elusive timing notch on the cam shaft that must appear in the driver's side bearing housing for the cam shaft.
> > > I can not see it on mine, and the pictures in the shop manual did not help much. Or I'm simply not looking at the right picture... I read the document file on here about installing the cam shaft properly, but I must be doing something wrong.
> > > Tommorrow, I will also check the condition of the valve seats. I lapped them when I rebuilt the engine a while ago, so I hope they are not the problem. Also, the valves are not bent or burned or cracked, so I am hoping that the valve face and seat is not the problem.
> > > So like I mentioned, any pictures of a properly installed cam shaft with the notch or level bar thing in the correct position would be extremely helpful since I can't seem to find it.
> > > thanks,
> > > Mike.
Re: Is 65 psi compression too low??
I personally would pull head apart and do a visual inspection of valves,guides and seats and if all looks good would lap them in to be sure all is good. I would also pull cylinders off to inspect rings, pistons and cylinder bores. I always want to make sure and examine everything thoroughly so when I put it back together I know it is fixed, otherwise you are assuming things are good without actually knowing. And many times you end up pulling it back apart again. That is my two cents. Brad Classic Auto Service Dallas
From:
Mike
To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:23 PM
Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] Re: Is 65 psi compression too low??
I think I found the problem.
Here's what happened: I reassembled most of the engine and made absolutely certain that I had the cam timed properly with the crankshaft. I used both the level mark and the notch on the driver's side of the cam shaft.
Then I did a compression test with out the carb on so that I would really be at full throttle. Guess what I got. 80 psi passenger and 85 psi driver side. I was kind of sad. Then I sat there and stared at it for a long time.
After a while, I started thinking about all the carbon I saw on the combustion chamber, and I wondered if it could effect the valve seats. I had already inspected the valve seats while I had the head off, and I thought they were ok, but I did not fully remove the valves, I only pushed them open a little bit.
Then I remembered what another person on here had said about shooting oil into the combustion chamber to see if you had bad rings during a compression test.
I still had the carb off, so I shot a bunch of oil all over the intake valve and did another compression test. 150 PSI!! Rock and Roll.
So here's my question: Do I need to remove the valves and do a full valve face and valve seat job? They do not look like they are super bad. I think it is just a bunch of carbon build up.
I was thinking maybe I could re-assemble and squirt some water into the intake while it is revved up and warm, or maybe squirt some Sea-Foam into the intake. Would that clean up my valve and combustion chamber enough?
Also, I am not sure if all the carbon is due to a lean fuel mixture and I need to have my carb worked on or if it is due to excessive oil coming down the intake valve stem. What do you guys think about that?
The piston rings are still somewhat new(less than 6000 miles since the rebuild). So I don't think it is blown rings.
It looks like there is carbon build up in the combustion chamber, and on the intake manifold side of the intake valve.
Any advice is good advice. Sorry I wrote so much to read, but thank you in advance for you replies.
Mike.
From:
Mike
To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:23 PM
Subject:
[anzhonda600owners] Re: Is 65 psi compression too low??
I think I found the problem.
Here's what happened: I reassembled most of the engine and made absolutely certain that I had the cam timed properly with the crankshaft. I used both the level mark and the notch on the driver's side of the cam shaft.
Then I did a compression test with out the carb on so that I would really be at full throttle. Guess what I got. 80 psi passenger and 85 psi driver side. I was kind of sad. Then I sat there and stared at it for a long time.
After a while, I started thinking about all the carbon I saw on the combustion chamber, and I wondered if it could effect the valve seats. I had already inspected the valve seats while I had the head off, and I thought they were ok, but I did not fully remove the valves, I only pushed them open a little bit.
Then I remembered what another person on here had said about shooting oil into the combustion chamber to see if you had bad rings during a compression test.
I still had the carb off, so I shot a bunch of oil all over the intake valve and did another compression test. 150 PSI!! Rock and Roll.
So here's my question: Do I need to remove the valves and do a full valve face and valve seat job? They do not look like they are super bad. I think it is just a bunch of carbon build up.
I was thinking maybe I could re-assemble and squirt some water into the intake while it is revved up and warm, or maybe squirt some Sea-Foam into the intake. Would that clean up my valve and combustion chamber enough?
Also, I am not sure if all the carbon is due to a lean fuel mixture and I need to have my carb worked on or if it is due to excessive oil coming down the intake valve stem. What do you guys think about that?
The piston rings are still somewhat new(less than 6000 miles since the rebuild). So I don't think it is blown rings.
It looks like there is carbon build up in the combustion chamber, and on the intake manifold side of the intake valve.
Any advice is good advice. Sorry I wrote so much to read, but thank you in advance for you replies.
Mike.
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Mike" wrote:
> Thanks Richard and Eric, The flat mark on the gear is what I used before, and that mark coincides with the mark in the picture that you sent me, Eric.
> That means my cam shaft timing was set correctly when I very first assembled the engine. I inspected the faces of my valves and their seats and they appear to be fine - no cracks or burned wholes or anything like that. I'm going to go ahead and re-assemble using the notches and level mark to set my camshaft and do another compression test.
> I was definitely one tooth off when I got the 65 psi reading, but I believe I only got 90 even before I changed it by a tooth. There's a chance I forgot to fully open the throttle when I got that reading, but I'm not sure. I definitely will full open the throttle this time.
> Also Bill, I checked the cam chain slipper and it is actually in a good position and does not appear to be pushing on the cam chain a lot. Certainly not enough to alter the timing.
> thanks,
> Mike.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> > I believe that the mark on the camshaft to display the proper timing position is on the passenger (right) side of the camshaft's gear. You can see this on page 4-27 of the sedan shop manual. If you don't have it, you can download it here:
http://www.honda600coupe.com/Manuals,_b ... ments.html
> > The mark -- a line across the gear -- should be parallel to the top of the cam housing when the notch on the crankshaft-mounted fan pulley aligns with the "T" mark on the outside of the alternator cover.
> > Richard
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Mike" wrote:
> > > Hi guys. There's a little sarcasm in the subject of this posting. I tried jumping my cam chain one tooth back to retard the timing as I thought it was possibly advanced by a tooth. Still ran, still backfired, and I got a compression reading of only 65 psi. At least I got 65 on each cylinder, so they are both performing at the same level. :)
> > > Today, I disassembled the upper part of the engine from the heads up. Basically, I just now took the heads off.
> > > My pulley is definitely put on correctly. The cylinder is perfectly at tdc when the notch is pointing at the "T" on the block. There was a decent amount of carbon on the top of the cylinder and the combustion chamber of the heads, but not too terribly bad.
> > > Any way, I am wondering if anyone has any pictures of this elusive timing notch on the cam shaft that must appear in the driver's side bearing housing for the cam shaft.
> > > I can not see it on mine, and the pictures in the shop manual did not help much. Or I'm simply not looking at the right picture... I read the document file on here about installing the cam shaft properly, but I must be doing something wrong.
> > > Tommorrow, I will also check the condition of the valve seats. I lapped them when I rebuilt the engine a while ago, so I hope they are not the problem. Also, the valves are not bent or burned or cracked, so I am hoping that the valve face and seat is not the problem.
> > > So like I mentioned, any pictures of a properly installed cam shaft with the notch or level bar thing in the correct position would be extremely helpful since I can't seem to find it.
> > > thanks,
> > > Mike.
Re: Is 65 psi compression too low??
Hi Mike;
Just a couple more things I would think of doing.
1- look at the stator pulley and see if the timing mark is on the left or right side of the center bolt hole. Some, not many were made with the timing on the wrong side. The mark should be to the left of the center.
2- I'd invest in a machine shop to do the valve job. They will also check to see of the valves are bent. And while it's at the machine shop, have them make sure any carbon build up is gone, everywhere. Also, have them make sure the head surface is true (flat).
3- make them aware that the rockers have very little adjustment so they don't start grinding on the valve stem, that would and has caused all kinds of head aches.
Bill
Just a couple more things I would think of doing.
1- look at the stator pulley and see if the timing mark is on the left or right side of the center bolt hole. Some, not many were made with the timing on the wrong side. The mark should be to the left of the center.
2- I'd invest in a machine shop to do the valve job. They will also check to see of the valves are bent. And while it's at the machine shop, have them make sure any carbon build up is gone, everywhere. Also, have them make sure the head surface is true (flat).
3- make them aware that the rockers have very little adjustment so they don't start grinding on the valve stem, that would and has caused all kinds of head aches.
Bill