crankshaft assembly

[Marshall]

Bill, Another thing. The larger big end con rod I have has the number S12C, the smaller one reads S12D. Does this suggest that the smaller big end came later & was considered a modification ?

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Marshall;
> What is the engine number on the Hondamatic engine you pulled the crankshaft
> from?
> I believe the 360 crankshaft is smaller and even differs from 600 in the
> parts manual listings.
> Also, is your transmission a two wire or single wire shifting to the column?
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Marshall
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:39 AM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: crankshaft assembly
> Note: I should point out that the smaller diameter journal is not just
> peculiar to auto cranks. Honda changed the big end spec. for all their 600
> engines. I could have found the auto having the stepped dimensions. Date of
> manufacture of each engine has determined my situation !
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> > As has been mentioned earlier by contributors, Honda varied the
> dimensions of big end journal design.
> > I am splitting two cranks for repair....... one belongs to a manual
> engine, the other to a hondamatic. The difference between the two is not
> just left drive end design.
> > I have posted a photo showing big end journal difference. The one on the
> left belongs to the manual engine crank, on the right is the auto crank. The
> manual journal has a clear step up in diameter from splined face to journal
> face. The auto's journal does not, same original diameter for both @ 34mm.
> Sever wearing has occured with this one & sleeving is going to be needed.
> > The manual journal allows for skimming to be possible. Spline dia. reads
> 35.5mm, journal face 36mm.
> > It's just my bad luck that the very uncommon auto crank is going to need
> the most work......... ever optimistic though.
> > Marshall.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "the_engine_room"
> wrote:
> > > Marsall, The crank had some rust and tightness to one of the rods, has
> been sitting for a while, I guess.I did press it apart, will clean it and
> inspect and report back. I also checked out some of the other comments,
> thanks to all for the info. Mike
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall"
> wrote:
> > > > Mike, I recently split a crankshaft for big end repair. still
> working on it. Why did you have need to split ? Marshall.
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "the_engine_room"
> wrote:
> > > > > Has anyone (successfully)tried to rebuild one of these crankshaft
> assemblies? I have one completely apart presently...Thanks, Mike

[Marshall]

What am I thinking about !!!!! It's obviously an N600 bottom end, the 360 doesn't have the alternator as the 600 has. Or is somebody going to confuse me more in my attempt to understand these engines by telling me later ones did ? HaHa.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Marshall;
> What is the engine number on the Hondamatic engine you pulled the crankshaft
> from?
> I believe the 360 crankshaft is smaller and even differs from 600 in the
> parts manual listings.
> Also, is your transmission a two wire or single wire shifting to the column?
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Marshall
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:39 AM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: crankshaft assembly
> Note: I should point out that the smaller diameter journal is not just
> peculiar to auto cranks. Honda changed the big end spec. for all their 600
> engines. I could have found the auto having the stepped dimensions. Date of
> manufacture of each engine has determined my situation !
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> > As has been mentioned earlier by contributors, Honda varied the
> dimensions of big end journal design.
> > I am splitting two cranks for repair....... one belongs to a manual
> engine, the other to a hondamatic. The difference between the two is not
> just left drive end design.
> > I have posted a photo showing big end journal difference. The one on the
> left belongs to the manual engine crank, on the right is the auto crank. The
> manual journal has a clear step up in diameter from splined face to journal
> face. The auto's journal does not, same original diameter for both @ 34mm.
> Sever wearing has occured with this one & sleeving is going to be needed.
> > The manual journal allows for skimming to be possible. Spline dia. reads
> 35.5mm, journal face 36mm.
> > It's just my bad luck that the very uncommon auto crank is going to need
> the most work......... ever optimistic though.
> > Marshall.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "the_engine_room"
> wrote:
> > > Marsall, The crank had some rust and tightness to one of the rods, has
> been sitting for a while, I guess.I did press it apart, will clean it and
> inspect and report back. I also checked out some of the other comments,
> thanks to all for the info. Mike
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall"
> wrote:
> > > > Mike, I recently split a crankshaft for big end repair. still
> working on it. Why did you have need to split ? Marshall.
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "the_engine_room"
> wrote:
> > > > > Has anyone (successfully)tried to rebuild one of these crankshaft
> assemblies? I have one completely apart presently...Thanks, Mike

[dealadayray]

Hi Marshall;
I didn’t mean to cause you to go into cardiac arrest, but the parts manual is a good indicator of parts association.   The Honda 350-400-600 parts manual also shows a Hondmatic with an external alternator.  There is a difference between the 360 and 600, but for some reason I though it was mainly around the N600 two wire trans is different from the single wire trans.  However according to the part numbers, the crankshaft seems to be the same for both early and late N600 units.  The N360 and N400 units use a different part number.   Did you say the stator side of the crankshaft is a different from a unit with a standard trans?  I can’t tell if there is a difference as the Honda Parts manual uses drawings instead of pictures and they look the same.   Even the shop manual does not give a diameter for any of the crankshaft.
Now that I have the engine number to your Hondamatic, I can tell you that it is a single wire shift.  The first 700 Hondamatic transmissions were 2 wire telegraph to the steering column.  There is quite an array of twisting and turning through the fire wall.  Also, there seems to be no more than 2500 Hondamatic units built for the N600.
The only information I have seen on bearings were for the main crankshaft bearings in Tech Bulletin 04002.
That is not to say there is not more info out there I have not seen, but this is the only document that I know of that identifies the bearings.
Who is rebuilding your Hondamatic transmission?
Regards
Bill

[blake neilson]

Until this latest exchange I was not aware of two different big end diameters.  I would imagine that if you used a combination of the larger big end rods with the small journal pins you would then have room for some hardened sleeves for the pins and/or rod i.d.'s.
As an aside, I purchased a new 600 in 1973, one of the last shipments of the series to the U.S. It cost $1695 new.  I do remember the shock when a friend who bought a used 1971 with a bad crank went to buy a new replacement crankshaft. It was either $125 or $250, I can't recall but either amount was a large percentage of the purchase price of the whole car.
Just my two cents.
GB

--- On
Wed, 5/12/10, Marshall

wrote:
From: Marshall
Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: crankshaft assembly
To: anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 7:02 AM
Bill, Another thing. The larger big end con rod I have has the number S12C, the smaller one reads S12D. Does this suggest that the smaller big end came later & was considered a modification ?
--- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
, wrote:
> Marshall;
> What is the engine number on the Hondamatic engine you pulled the crankshaft > from?
> I believe the 360 crankshaft is smaller and even differs from 600 in the > parts manual listings.
> Also, is your transmission a two wire or single wire shifting to the column?
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
]On Behalf Of Marshall
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:39 AM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: crankshaft assembly
> Note: I should point out that the smaller diameter journal is not just > peculiar to auto cranks. Honda changed the big end spec. for all their 600 > engines. I could have found the auto having the stepped dimensions. Date of > manufacture of each engine has determined my situation !
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> > As has been mentioned earlier by contributors, Honda varied the > dimensions of big end journal design.
> > I am splitting two cranks for repair...... . one belongs to a manual > engine, the other to a hondamatic. The difference between the two is not > just left drive end design.
> > I have posted a photo showing big end journal difference. The one on the > left belongs to the manual engine crank, on the right is the auto crank.
The
> manual journal has a clear step up in diameter from splined face to journal > face. The auto's journal does not, same original diameter for both @ 34mm.
> Sever wearing has occured with this one & sleeving is going to be needed.
> > The manual journal allows for skimming to be possible. Spline dia. reads > 35.5mm, journal face 36mm.
> > It's just my bad luck that the very uncommon auto crank is going to need > the most work........ . ever optimistic though.
> > Marshall.
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
, "the_engine_ room"
> wrote:
> > > Marsall, The crank had some rust and tightness to one
of the rods, has
> been sitting for a while, I guess.I did press it apart, will clean it and > inspect and report back. I also checked out some of the other comments, > thanks to all for the info. Mike
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
, "Marshall"
> wrote:
> > > > Mike, I recently split a crankshaft for big end repair. still > working on it. Why did you have need to split ? Marshall.
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
,
"the_engine_ room"
> wrote:
> > > > > Has anyone (successfully) tried to rebuild one of these crankshaft > assemblies? I have one completely apart presently... Thanks, Mike

[Marshall]

Thats a good point you make Blake ! If I had a spare pair of larger big end con rods, they would be very useful for that reason. It's interesting to hear spares were such a silly price even years ago.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, blake neilson wrote:
> Until this latest exchange I was not aware of two different big end diameters.  I would imagine that if you used a combination of the larger big end rods with the small journal pins you would then have room for some hardened sleeves for the pins and/or rod i.d.'s.
> As an aside, I purchased a new 600 in 1973, one of the last shipments of the series to the U.S. It cost $1695 new.  I do remember the shock when a friend who bought a used 1971 with a bad crank went to buy a new replacement crankshaft. It was either $125 or $250, I can't recall but either amount was a large percentage of the purchase price of the whole car.
> Just my two cents.
> GB
> --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Marshall wrote:
> From: Marshall
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: crankshaft assembly
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 7:02 AM
> Bill, Another thing. The larger big end con rod I have has the number S12C, the smaller one reads S12D. Does this suggest that the smaller big end came later & was considered a modification ?
> --- In anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com, wrote:
> > Marshall;
> > What is the engine number on the Hondamatic engine you pulled the crankshaft
> > from?
> > I believe the 360 crankshaft is smaller and even differs from 600 in the
> > parts manual listings.
> > Also, is your transmission a two wire or single wire shifting to the column?
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > [mailto:anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com]On Behalf Of Marshall
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:39 AM
> > To: anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: crankshaft assembly
> > Note: I should point out that the smaller diameter journal is not just
> > peculiar to auto cranks. Honda changed the big end spec. for all their 600
> > engines. I could have found the auto having the stepped dimensions. Date of
> > manufacture of each engine has determined my situation !
> > --- In anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com, "Marshall" wrote:
> > > As has been mentioned earlier by contributors, Honda varied the
> > dimensions of big end journal design.
> > > I am splitting two cranks for repair...... . one belongs to a manual
> > engine, the other to a hondamatic. The difference between the two is not
> > just left drive end design.
> > > I have posted a photo showing big end journal difference. The one on the
> > left belongs to the manual engine crank, on the right is the auto crank. The
> > manual journal has a clear step up in diameter from splined face to journal
> > face. The auto's journal does not, same original diameter for both @ 34mm.
> > Sever wearing has occured with this one & sleeving is going to be needed.
> > > The manual journal allows for skimming to be possible. Spline dia. reads
> > 35.5mm, journal face 36mm.
> > > It's just my bad luck that the very uncommon auto crank is going to need
> > the most work........ . ever optimistic though.
> > > Marshall.
> > > --- In anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com, "the_engine_ room"
> > wrote:
> > > > Marsall, The crank had some rust and tightness to one of the rods, has
> > been sitting for a while, I guess.I did press it apart, will clean it and
> > inspect and report back. I also checked out some of the other comments,
> > thanks to all for the info. Mike
> > > > --- In anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com, "Marshall"
> > wrote:
> > > > > Mike, I recently split a crankshaft for big end repair. still
> > working on it. Why did you have need to split ? Marshall.
> > > > > --- In anzhonda600owners@ yahoogroups. com, "the_engine_ room"
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Has anyone (successfully) tried to rebuild one of these crankshaft
> > assemblies? I have one completely apart presently... Thanks, Mike

[Marshall]

Bill,
I recently purchased a complete N600 sedan automatic & spare N600 engine, less barrels & head from the same person. He had had them for the last 20 years meaning to one day refurbish.
As you have confirmed, the spare engine has single wire column connection. I can also tell you the sedan has the same single wire connection. Both automatic engines have the very same alternator design as the manual engine.
Is the Honda 350-400-600 parts manual downloadable from anywhere ?
I have a copy of Parts catalog 2nd Edition 600 Sedan...... it doesn't cover the automatic engine. If it has the same format as 2nd Edition Sedan, it would be a godsend.
Marshall.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "William Colford" wrote:
> Hi Marshall;
> I didn't mean to cause you to go into cardiac arrest, but the parts manual
> is a good indicator of parts association. The Honda 350-400-600 parts
> manual also shows a Hondmatic with an external alternator. There is a
> difference between the 360 and 600, but for some reason I though it was
> mainly around the N600 two wire trans is different from the single wire
> trans. However according to the part numbers, the crankshaft seems to be
> the same for both early and late N600 units. The N360 and N400 units use a
> different part number. Did you say the stator side of the crankshaft is a
> different from a unit with a standard trans? I can't tell if there is a
> difference as the Honda Parts manual uses drawings instead of pictures and
> they look the same. Even the shop manual does not give a diameter for any
> of the crankshaft.
> Now that I have the engine number to your Hondamatic, I can tell you that it
> is a single wire shift. The first 700 Hondamatic transmissions were 2 wire
> telegraph to the steering column. There is quite an array of twisting and
> turning through the fire wall. Also, there seems to be no more than 2500
> Hondamatic units built for the N600.
> The only information I have seen on bearings were for the main crankshaft
> bearings in Tech Bulletin 04002. That is not to say there is not more info
> out there I have not seen, but this is the only document that I know of that
> identifies the bearings.
> Who is rebuilding your Hondamatic transmission?
> Regards
> Bill
> _____
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
] On Behalf Of Marshall
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 7:02 AM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: crankshaft assembly
> Bill, Another thing. The larger big end con rod I have has the number S12C,
> the smaller one reads S12D. Does this suggest that the smaller big end came
> later & was considered a modification ?
> --- In anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups.com, wrote:
> > Marshall;
> > What is the engine number on the Hondamatic engine you pulled the
> crankshaft
> > from?
> > I believe the 360 crankshaft is smaller and even differs from 600 in the
> > parts manual listings.
> > Also, is your transmission a two wire or single wire shifting to the
> column?
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Marshall
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:39 AM
> > To: anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Re: crankshaft assembly
> > Note: I should point out that the smaller diameter journal is not just
> > peculiar to auto cranks. Honda changed the big end spec. for all their 600
> > engines. I could have found the auto having the stepped dimensions. Date
> of
> > manufacture of each engine has determined my situation !
> > --- In anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups.com, "Marshall" wrote:
> > > As has been mentioned earlier by contributors, Honda varied the
> > dimensions of big end journal design.
> > > I am splitting two cranks for repair....... one belongs to a manual
> > engine, the other to a hondamatic. The difference between the two is not
> > just left drive end design.
> > > I have posted a photo showing big end journal difference. The one on the
> > left belongs to the manual engine crank, on the right is the auto crank.
> The
> > manual journal has a clear step up in diameter from splined face to
> journal
> > face. The auto's journal does not, same original diameter for both @ 34mm.
> > Sever wearing has occured with this one & sleeving is going to be needed.
> > > The manual journal allows for skimming to be possible. Spline dia. reads
> > 35.5mm, journal face 36mm.
> > > It's just my bad luck that the very uncommon auto crank is going to need
> > the most work......... ever optimistic though.
> > > Marshall.
> > > --- In anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups.com, "the_engine_room"
> > wrote:
> > > > Marsall, The crank had some rust and tightness to one of the rods, has
> > been sitting for a while, I guess.I did press it apart, will clean it and
> > inspect and report back. I also checked out some of the other comments,
> > thanks to all for the info. Mike
> > > > --- In anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups.com, "Marshall"
> > wrote:
> > > > > Mike, I recently split a crankshaft for big end repair. still
> > working on it. Why did you have need to split ? Marshall.
> > > > > --- In anzhonda600owners@
> yahoogroups.com,
> "the_engine_room"
> > wrote:
> > > > > > Has anyone (successfully)tried to rebuild one of these crankshaft
> > assemblies? I have one completely apart presently...Thanks, Mike