Looks like I've killed another battery. :o(

misterpoopoohead · Post by **misterpoopoohead** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:03 am

Hi Gang,
Anyone else have issues with killing batteries in your 600?
I left the headlights on for less than an hour on Saurday while
eating breakfast and when I came out to start the car the battery was
flat dead. I had AAA fix me up in no time and it was fine the rest of
the day.
Then on Sunday I talked to my Dad on my cell phone (which was plugged
into the lighter socket) for about an hour and it drained the battery
so much that the car would almost turn over, but I couldn't get it
started. I am surprised that the cell phone could drain the battery
down this much!
I'm planning to put a clamp-on ammeter on the battery cable to see if
there is any current flow with everything shut off. I'll also check
the voltage across the battery with my DMM while it's running to see
if the alternator is running at a good voltage.
I am considering looking into converting the parking lights, brake
lights, and blinker lights to LED's to lower the load on the charging
system. Anyone else try that?
Does anyone know if there are any low power replacements for the
headlights? They are a huge drain on the charging system.
Miles, do you have any pearls of wisdom you can add? ;o)
kev

Miles · Post by **Miles** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:33 pm

The first thing to check is if you are using AA Duracells or just
regular batteries. If your starter won't crank with the AA's then
you might install some D size batteries.
The next thing I can recommend is drive your Jeep when you go out to
breakfast, and limit calls with Dad to 15 minutes, you don't need
that much radiation.
I'd put an In-Line ampmeter in and a Volt Meter also. The alternator
should be putting out 13.8v at the battery.
Miles

riceburner006 · Post by **riceburner006** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:29 pm

--- In 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, "misterpoopoohead"
wrote:
Hey Kev! You could have a problem in the charging system,but I
realized years ago,the 600 system will not keep up with the demand of
a lot of slow stop &go driving,especially if you have a decent radio
and or halogen headlights. Even with a perfect charging system if you
drive only short hops,with many restarts,your starter drains the
battery,and if you don't drive with the revs up ,like on the hi-way,
the alternator will not keep up! It's rated about 35 amps,but unlike
typical cars,it's driven at crankshaft speed. All normal cars have
alternators spinning at twice the speed of the crank,so your charging
even at idle. I'm NOT saying the battery will go dead,but I will
challenge anyone to check the battery voltage after several small
trips when your bar-hopping or just driving every day less than a
mile.Put a charger on it,and the ammeter will show it needs charged

> Hi Gang,
> Anyone else have issues with killing batteries in your 600?
> I left the headlights on for less than an hour on Saurday while
> eating breakfast and when I came out to start the car the battery was
> flat dead. I had AAA fix me up in no time and it was fine the rest of
> the day.
> Then on Sunday I talked to my Dad on my cell phone (which was plugged
> into the lighter socket) for about an hour and it drained the battery
> so much that the car would almost turn over, but I couldn't get it
> started. I am surprised that the cell phone could drain the battery
> down this much!
> I'm planning to put a clamp-on ammeter on the battery cable to see if
> there is any current flow with everything shut off. I'll also check
> the voltage across the battery with my DMM while it's running to see
> if the alternator is running at a good voltage.
> I am considering looking into converting the parking lights, brake
> lights, and blinker lights to LED's to lower the load on the charging
> system. Anyone else try that?
> Does anyone know if there are any low power replacements for the
> headlights? They are a huge drain on the charging system.
> Miles, do you have any pearls of wisdom you can add? ;o)
> kev

riceburner006 · Post by **riceburner006** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:57 am

--- In 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, "misterpoopoohead"
wrote:
Hey Kev! You could have a problem in the charging system,but I
realized years ago,the 600 system will not keep up with the demand of
a lot of slow stop &go driving,especially if you have a decent radio
and or halogen headlights. Even with a perfect charging system if you
drive only short hops,with many restarts,your starter drains the
battery,and if you don't drive with the revs up ,like on the hi-way,
the alternator will not keep up! It's rated about 35 amps,but unlike
typical cars,it's driven at crankshaft speed. All normal cars have
alternators spinning at twice the speed of the crank,so your charging
even at idle. I'm NOT saying the battery will go dead,but I will
challenge anyone to check the battery voltage after several small
trips when your bar-hopping or just driving every day less than a
mile.Put a charger on it,and the ammeter will show it needs charged

> Hi Gang,
> Anyone else have issues with killing batteries in your 600?
> I left the headlights on for less than an hour on Saurday while
> eating breakfast and when I came out to start the car the battery was
> flat dead. I had AAA fix me up in no time and it was fine the rest of
> the day.
> Then on Sunday I talked to my Dad on my cell phone (which was plugged
> into the lighter socket) for about an hour and it drained the battery
> so much that the car would almost turn over, but I couldn't get it
> started. I am surprised that the cell phone could drain the battery
> down this much!
> I'm planning to put a clamp-on ammeter on the battery cable to see if
> there is any current flow with everything shut off. I'll also check
> the voltage across the battery with my DMM while it's running to see
> if the alternator is running at a good voltage.
> I am considering looking into converting the parking lights, brake
> lights, and blinker lights to LED's to lower the load on the charging
> system. Anyone else try that?
> Does anyone know if there are any low power replacements for the
> headlights? They are a huge drain on the charging system.
> Miles, do you have any pearls of wisdom you can add? ;o)
> kev

jim30587 · Post by **jim30587** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:42 am

i think we kill this battery for good.
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com

riceburner006 · Post by **riceburner006** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:07 pm

--- In 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, jim30587@... wrote:

> i think we kill this battery for good.
> Sir,What are you trying to convey to us??
> ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com

friend · Post by **friend** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:45 pm

The charging system is as good as it is maintained. Connections that have
grown weak because of corrosion, grounds that have become lose both degrade
the system. Even bulb sockets will cause your battery to drain. Start by
getting a tube of dilectric grease (to seal connections after you clean
them) and a small round wire brush along with some 0000 sand paper and set
about cleaning all the connections in your wire harness, remove and attach
everything. You will find corrosion everywhere you look. Don't say the
Honda electrictrical system is bad until you have done your part.
Start with disconnecting the battery and put it on a charger, then work from
the front back or back to front. Clean all of it. You will be amazed at
the outcome. When you get to the brushes on the stator check to see if they
are the right length and clean the contact surface with an eraser, yep it
will make things a whole bunch better.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of riceburner006
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 4:30 PM
To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: Looks like I've killed another battery. :o(
--- In 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, "misterpoopoohead"
wrote:
Hey Kev! You could have a problem in the charging system,but I
realized years ago,the 600 system will not keep up with the demand of
a lot of slow stop &go driving,especially if you have a decent radio
and or halogen headlights. Even with a perfect charging system if you
drive only short hops,with many restarts,your starter drains the
battery,and if you don't drive with the revs up ,like on the hi-way,
the alternator will not keep up! It's rated about 35 amps,but unlike
typical cars,it's driven at crankshaft speed. All normal cars have
alternators spinning at twice the speed of the crank,so your charging
even at idle. I'm NOT saying the battery will go dead,but I will
challenge anyone to check the battery voltage after several small
trips when your bar-hopping or just driving every day less than a
mile.Put a charger on it,and the ammeter will show it needs charged

> Hi Gang,
> Anyone else have issues with killing batteries in your 600?
> I left the headlights on for less than an hour on Saurday while
> eating breakfast and when I came out to start the car the battery was
> flat dead. I had AAA fix me up in no time and it was fine the rest of
> the day.
> Then on Sunday I talked to my Dad on my cell phone (which was plugged
> into the lighter socket) for about an hour and it drained the battery
> so much that the car would almost turn over, but I couldn't get it
> started. I am surprised that the cell phone could drain the battery
> down this much!
> I'm planning to put a clamp-on ammeter on the battery cable to see if
> there is any current flow with everything shut off. I'll also check
> the voltage across the battery with my DMM while it's running to see
> if the alternator is running at a good voltage.
> I am considering looking into converting the parking lights, brake
> lights, and blinker lights to LED's to lower the load on the charging
> system. Anyone else try that?
> Does anyone know if there are any low power replacements for the
> headlights? They are a huge drain on the charging system.
> Miles, do you have any pearls of wisdom you can add? ;o)
> kev

Kevin Lister · Post by **Kevin Lister** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:49 pm

Hi Everyone,
When I bought this car it had already been cleaned up pretty well. The engine had been rebuilt and appears to be running well, with the exception of occasional sputtering. I'm thinking that replacing the fuel filter again will solve that problem.
The electrical system appears to be clean. I haven't looked at the brushes on the alternator but I suspect that they are fine since it looks like whomever rebuilt the engine was thorough. The battery cables look original and they look almost new.
So, what's left? Well, the voltage regulator is original and is old and crusty looking. I plan to open it up and check the Yoke, Core and Points gaps in the regulator and adjust them accordingly. I'm thinking that adjusting (or replacing and adjusting) the regulator may solve the problem.
I just went outside with a friend (I'm at work) to check the voltage level on the battery with my Fluke DMM. At idle the voltage level measured in at 11.6V. Very low. I had my friend crank up the RPM's as high as I dared and it only got to 12.5V. It is my experience withold cars that this is usually an indication of a problem regulator and not an alternator problem.
The alternator on the 600 has 3 main output windings. If one of these windings was dead that would represent a 1/3 reduction in current flowing from the alternator. I suspect the battery would not last long in that situation. I haven't actually tested the output terminals of the alternator yet, but I believe that the conclusion of my thought experiment will prove to be correct.
I'll test the charging system components in logical order:
1) Alternator output
2) Output at the bridge rectifier
3) regulator circuit
I'm confident that the problem will be with the regulator and either adjustment or replacement will solve the problem. Of course I'll keep an open mind as it could be something else! ;o)
I'll keep everyone posted on the testing and my findings. I'm still considering replacing the old mechanical regulator with Solid-State circuitry.
The mad scientist in me wants to replace the points and rotor with a combination of transistors, Hall-Effect devices, and magnets. If I come up with anything I'll share it with the group.
kev
billmyong@... wrote:
The charging system is as good as it is maintained. Connections that have
grown weak because of corrosion, grounds that have become lose both degrade
the system. Even bulb sockets will cause your battery to drain. Start by
getting a tube of dilectric grease (to seal connections after you clean
them) and a small round wire brush along with some 0000 sand paper and set
about cleaning all the connections in your wire harness, remove and attach
everything. You will find corrosion everywhere you look. Don't say the
Honda electrictrical system is bad until you have done your part.
Start with disconnecting the battery and put it on a charger, then work from
the front back or back to front. Clean all of it. You will be amazed at
the outcome. When you get to the brushes on the stator check to see if they
are the right length and clean the contact surface with an eraser, yep it
will make things a whole bunch better.
Bill

Kevin Lister · Post by **Kevin Lister** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:08 pm

Ha! LoL! ;o)
I'm out of D cells at the moment, but I do have a hamster that mostly sleeps and runs in his little excersize wheel. I figure if I replace the engine with him and hi wheel the net result will be more power. ;o)
I put my DMM on the battery when the car is at idle and it reads 11.74v. I was expecting 13.8v which is what I am accustomed to seeing on automotive charging systems. The manual I have has a fair description on how to adjust the gaps in the regulator. I'm planning to check the regulator and the alternator this Saturday. I have a DMM and an Ammeter I can use for testing. I've looked at the schematic carfeully and I'm even thinking of replacing the anitquated regulator with a Solid-State circuit. That shouldn't be too hard to design. I'll have to study the regulator in detail first.
I'll get the more indepth testing done tomorrow and then hopefully find the problem.
kev
Miles wrote:
The first thing to check is if you are using AA Duracells or just
regular batteries. If your starter won't crank with the AA's then
you might install some D size batteries.
The next thing I can recommend is drive your Jeep when you go out to
breakfast, and limit calls with Dad to 15 minutes, you don't need
that much radiation.
I'd put an In-Line ampmeter in and a Volt Meter also. The alternator
should be putting out 13.8v at the battery.
Miles

friend · Post by **friend** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:55 am

Kev;
Do a few things before messing with the voltage regulator.
Clean all the connections between the battery and engine/harness/fuse
box.....
as for the regulator, look at the ground connections and ensure the ground
wire is on a clean bolt to body including the washer. Clean the base of the
voltage regulator where it connects to the body. Then unplug it and clean
all the connecting points. Remember, there are three sections to your
alternator, - Stator W/Brushes, Rectifyer and Voltage Regulator. This is
not a single component. If it is still low, open the regulator and there is
an adjustment on one of the coils.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Lister
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:03 AM
To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [2cylinderhondas] Re: Looks like I've killed another battery.
:o(
Ha! LoL! ;o)
I'm out of D cells at the moment, but I do have a hamster that mostly
sleeps and runs in his little excersize wheel. I figure if I replace the
engine with him and hi wheel the net result will be more power. ;o)
I put my DMM on the battery when the car is at idle and it reads 11.74v. I
was expecting 13.8v which is what I am accustomed to seeing on automotive
charging systems. The manual I have has a fair description on how to adjust
the gaps in the regulator. I'm planning to check the regulator and the
alternator this Saturday. I have a DMM and an Ammeter I can use for testing.
I've looked at the schematic carfeully and I'm even thinking of replacing
the anitquated regulator with a Solid-State circuit. That shouldn't be too
hard to design. I'll have to study the regulator in detail first.
I'll get the more indepth testing done tomorrow and then hopefully find
the problem.
kev
Miles wrote:
The first thing to check is if you are using AA Duracells or just
regular batteries. If your starter won't crank with the AA's then
you might install some D size batteries.
The next thing I can recommend is drive your Jeep when you go out to
breakfast, and limit calls with Dad to 15 minutes, you don't need
that much radiation.
I'd put an In-Line ampmeter in and a Volt Meter also. The alternator
should be putting out 13.8v at the battery.
Miles
--- In 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, "misterpoopoohead"
wrote:

> Hi Gang,
> Anyone else have issues with killing batteries in your 600?
> I left the headlights on for less than an hour on Saurday while
> eating breakfast and when I came out to start the car the battery was
> flat dead. I had AAA fix me up in no time and it was fine the rest of
> the day.
> Then on Sunday I talked to my Dad on my cell phone (which was plugged
> into the lighter socket) for about an hour and it drained the battery
> so much that the car would almost turn over, but I couldn't get it
> started. I am surprised that the cell phone could drain the battery
> down this much!
> I'm planning to put a clamp-on ammeter on the battery cable to see if
> there is any current flow with everything shut off. I'll also check
> the voltage across the battery with my DMM while it's running to see
> if the alternator is running at a good voltage.
> I am considering looking into converting the parking lights, brake
> lights, and blinker lights to LED's to lower the load on the charging
> system. Anyone else try that?
> Does anyone know if there are any low power replacements for the
> headlights? They are a huge drain on the charging system.
> Miles, do you have any pearls of wisdom you can add? ;o)
> kev

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