trouble starting engine after rebuild

[jeffanson2005]

Need some guidance with getting my 72 Z600 to fire. Recently rebuilt
the top end of engine after having a valve bury itself into my
drivers side piston. Had the cylinders machined and bought 1mm
oversize pistons from Oconnors. Brass valve sleeves from Miles and
some other items from here and there.
Got the engine to start, but ran really rough and had little power.
I had a tow truck on the way to pick it up and take it to another
shop for a custom exhaust system to be installed. I ran the car for
mabey 3 or 4 minutes and when I parked it outside I noticed a large
amount of engine oil coming out after I had turned the engine off.
Didnt have time to mess with it but it seemed to be coming from the
rear of the engine say around the cylinders and near the fan.
About two weeks later the car returned with the new exhaust in place
and I proceeded to inspect where the oil leak was from but could not
start the engine again. I check the timing, static, pulled the spark
plugs and I'm getting a nice spark when trying to start. Pulled the
carb to see if there was any flooding involved, but didnt notice too
much fuel in the manifold. I'm getting fuel up to the carb and can
smell it when I'm trying to start with the aircleaner off. I'm
assuming fuel is getting into the carb.
Many experts on this forum could give me the basic things to check
for to get the engine to fire. Hope anyone could help. It would be
greatly appreciated. Tomorrow, I'm checking for proper compression
on each cylinder. Any other tips would be great.
Engine cranks but does not fire.

[jeffanson2005]

1 if the battery is low it will not crank enough to start. Batt is ok
and turns over engine easily
2 if it flooded out, it will not start, need to pull plugs and dry out.
Replace and try again. Plugs are nice and dry on both cylinders
3 check the braker plate to see if it is moving up and down ? (this
is a problem with points maintaining their gap) Gap seems to be ok and
moving normally
4 What did you torque (Ft. Lbs.) the head to? Torque was applied as
Haynes manual states proper lbs
5 The engine leaks, did the cylinders have "O" rings at the base of
the cyliner? Leaks can occure from the rear of the engine when "O" rings
are not replaced on the early cylinders, later ones didn't use them.
And, the shop manual doesn't show or talk to them. Did not notice any O
rings when we disassembled cylinders, but you could be right about where
the leak is coming from. I'll pull the fan off and turn over the engine
and see if I can spot any leakage in that area 6 Did you check the
spark plug wire ends to ensure they didn't come lose? The engine will
not start if both plugs are not fireing. Yes, they seem tight and
getting good spark 7 Did you change the cam chain? (use a new one)
No. Used existing chain 8 when the head was rebuilt, was it checked
to see if it was warped? No, but had machinist check for anything
abnormal and all was ok. 9 when replacing the head, were cap nuts
used on the rear center studs? Not sure. I'll look and see 10 When
you had the cylinder bored, how many thousands over the piston size did
you bore them to? Good question. I left that to the machinist and gave
him all the specs from the Haynes manual. 11 When you put the
pistons in were they put in with the IN mark toward the intake valve?
Arrow on new pistons (1mm os) pointing forward as per directions from
manufacturer of new pistons. got them from O'connors. 12 did you
use factory gaskets? Somewhat. O'connors sent us sheets with printouts
on the gasket which we had to cut out ourselves and seemed to be ok,
however we did not get a gasket for space between cylinders and head, so
we used the one that was already there checked compression today and
got nothing on either cylinder. thinking the whole thing is out of time
and possibly valves are open when they shouldnt be and or oil leak is
cause of not having any compression. Since engine did run right after
I filled it with oil, I'm thinking the oil had something to do with
giving the engine some compression while it was coming through the
seams. Thanks for the help! You guys sure know your stuff. Hope to
remedy this soon.

[jeffanson2005]

Hey all. Just an update about the engine problem we had and how we
managed to fix it.
With big help from excellent advice from Bill and Dale, we retorqued
the head to 30 ft/lbs and oil leak has stopped. A few drops are
coming out now, but havent located the exact position yet. Car was
assembled slightly off time where the cam wheel line was not
horizontal when setting the time. Once properly set we rechecked
compression and now have 180 drivers, and 160 passenger cylinder.
Much higher than I expected. I'll check it once a month during break
in period.
I'm a happy boy again now I can finally drive the Z.
Thanks again for all the helpful replies.
Jeff
Miami, FL
1972 Z600

[friend]

Jeff;
Try looking at the speedometer cable seal. Many I mean many leak.
Also, check the torque on the 6mm bolts, including the one under the head.
All of them should be at least 90 inch pounds.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of jeffanson2005
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:38 PM
To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: trouble starting engine after rebuild
Hey all. Just an update about the engine problem we had and how we
managed to fix it.
With big help from excellent advice from Bill and Dale, we retorqued
the head to 30 ft/lbs and oil leak has stopped. A few drops are
coming out now, but havent located the exact position yet. Car was
assembled slightly off time where the cam wheel line was not
horizontal when setting the time. Once properly set we rechecked
compression and now have 180 drivers, and 160 passenger cylinder.
Much higher than I expected. I'll check it once a month during break
in period.
I'm a happy boy again now I can finally drive the Z.
Thanks again for all the helpful replies.
Jeff
Miami, FL
1972 Z600
--- In 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com, "jeffanson2005"
wrote:

> 1 if the battery is low it will not crank enough to start. Batt is ok
> and turns over engine easily
> 2 if it flooded out, it will not start, need to pull plugs and dry out.
> Replace and try again. Plugs are nice and dry on both cylinders
> 3 check the braker plate to see if it is moving up and down ? (this
> is a problem with points maintaining their gap) Gap seems to be ok and
> moving normally
> 4 What did you torque (Ft. Lbs.) the head to? Torque was applied as
> Haynes manual states proper lbs
> 5 The engine leaks, did the cylinders have "O" rings at the base of
> the cyliner? Leaks can occure from the rear of the engine when "O" rings
> are not replaced on the early cylinders, later ones didn't use them.
> And, the shop manual doesn't show or talk to them. Did not notice any O
> rings when we disassembled cylinders, but you could be right about where
> the leak is coming from. I'll pull the fan off and turn over the engine
> and see if I can spot any leakage in that area 6 Did you check the
> spark plug wire ends to ensure they didn't come lose? The engine will
> not start if both plugs are not fireing. Yes, they seem tight and
> getting good spark 7 Did you change the cam chain? (use a new one)
> No. Used existing chain 8 when the head was rebuilt, was it checked
> to see if it was warped? No, but had machinist check for anything
> abnormal and all was ok. 9 when replacing the head, were cap nuts
> used on the rear center studs? Not sure. I'll look and see 10 When
> you had the cylinder bored, how many thousands over the piston size did
> you bore them to? Good question. I left that to the machinist and gave
> him all the specs from the Haynes manual. 11 When you put the
> pistons in were they put in with the IN mark toward the intake valve?
> Arrow on new pistons (1mm os) pointing forward as per directions from
> manufacturer of new pistons. got them from O'connors. 12 did you
> use factory gaskets? Somewhat. O'connors sent us sheets with printouts
> on the gasket which we had to cut out ourselves and seemed to be ok,
> however we did not get a gasket for space between cylinders and head, so
> we used the one that was already there checked compression today and
> got nothing on either cylinder. thinking the whole thing is out of time
> and possibly valves are open when they shouldnt be and or oil leak is
> cause of not having any compression. Since engine did run right after
> I filled it with oil, I'm thinking the oil had something to do with
> giving the engine some compression while it was coming through the
> seams. Thanks for the help! You guys sure know your stuff. Hope to
> remedy this soon.
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jeffanson2005"
> wrote:
> > Need some guidance with getting my 72 Z600 to fire. Recently rebuilt
> > the top end of engine after having a valve bury itself into my
> > drivers side piston. Had the cylinders machined and bought 1mm
> > oversize pistons from Oconnors. Brass valve sleeves from Miles and
> > some other items from here and there.
> > Got the engine to start, but ran really rough and had little power.
> > I had a tow truck on the way to pick it up and take it to another
> > shop for a custom exhaust system to be installed. I ran the car for
> > mabey 3 or 4 minutes and when I parked it outside I noticed a large
> > amount of engine oil coming out after I had turned the engine off.
> > Didnt have time to mess with it but it seemed to be coming from the
> > rear of the engine say around the cylinders and near the fan.
> > About two weeks later the car returned with the new exhaust in place
> > and I proceeded to inspect where the oil leak was from but could not
> > start the engine again. I check the timing, static, pulled the spark
> > plugs and I'm getting a nice spark when trying to start. Pulled the
> > carb to see if there was any flooding involved, but didnt notice too
> > much fuel in the manifold. I'm getting fuel up to the carb and can
> > smell it when I'm trying to start with the aircleaner off. I'm
> > assuming fuel is getting into the carb.
> > Many experts on this forum could give me the basic things to check
> > for to get the engine to fire. Hope anyone could help. It would be
> > greatly appreciated. Tomorrow, I'm checking for proper compression
> > on each cylinder. Any other tips would be great.
> > Engine cranks but does not fire.

[jeffanson2005]

Yup! Bill game me a clue. Found some oil coming out of the tach
cable, not speedo area. I need to check if there is supposed to be
an o-ring in there.
Also tach indicator jumps around (while tach should show around 1000
rmp its around 4000 then jumps in the red area while giving it a
slight rev.) Dont know if thats a cable problem or tach itself.
Jeff
Miami, FL

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Jeff;
> Try looking at the speedometer cable seal. Many I mean many
leak.
> Also, check the torque on the 6mm bolts, including the one under
the head.
> All of them should be at least 90 inch pounds.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of jeffanson2005
> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:38 PM
> To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: trouble starting engine after
rebuild
> Hey all. Just an update about the engine problem we had and how we
> managed to fix it.
> With big help from excellent advice from Bill and Dale, we
retorqued
> the head to 30 ft/lbs and oil leak has stopped. A few drops are
> coming out now, but havent located the exact position yet. Car was
> assembled slightly off time where the cam wheel line was not
> horizontal when setting the time. Once properly set we rechecked
> compression and now have 180 drivers, and 160 passenger cylinder.
> Much higher than I expected. I'll check it once a month during
break
> in period.
> I'm a happy boy again now I can finally drive the Z.
> Thanks again for all the helpful replies.
> Jeff
> Miami, FL
> 1972 Z600
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jeffanson2005"
> wrote:
> > 1 if the battery is low it will not crank enough to start. Batt
> is ok
> > and turns over engine easily
> > 2 if it flooded out, it will not start, need to pull plugs and
dry
> out.
> > Replace and try again. Plugs are nice and dry on both cylinders
> > 3 check the braker plate to see if it is moving up and down ?
> (this
> > is a problem with points maintaining their gap) Gap seems to be
ok
> and
> > moving normally
> > 4 What did you torque (Ft. Lbs.) the head to? Torque was
applied as
> > Haynes manual states proper lbs
> > 5 The engine leaks, did the cylinders have "O" rings at the
> base of
> > the cyliner? Leaks can occure from the rear of the engine
when "O"
> rings
> > are not replaced on the early cylinders, later ones didn't use
> them.
> > And, the shop manual doesn't show or talk to them. Did not
notice
> any O
> > rings when we disassembled cylinders, but you could be right
about
> where
> > the leak is coming from. I'll pull the fan off and turn over the
> engine
> > and see if I can spot any leakage in that area 6 Did you check
> the
> > spark plug wire ends to ensure they didn't come lose? The engine
> will
> > not start if both plugs are not fireing. Yes, they seem tight
and
> > getting good spark 7 Did you change the cam chain? (use a new
> one)
> > No. Used existing chain 8 when the head was rebuilt, was it
> checked
> > to see if it was warped? No, but had machinist check for
anything
> > abnormal and all was ok. 9 when replacing the head, were cap
> nuts
> > used on the rear center studs? Not sure. I'll look and see 10
> When
> > you had the cylinder bored, how many thousands over the piston
size
> did
> > you bore them to? Good question. I left that to the machinist
and
> gave
> > him all the specs from the Haynes manual. 11 When you put the
> > pistons in were they put in with the IN mark toward the intake
> valve?
> > Arrow on new pistons (1mm os) pointing forward as per directions
> from
> > manufacturer of new pistons. got them from O'connors. 12 did
> you
> > use factory gaskets? Somewhat. O'connors sent us sheets with
> printouts
> > on the gasket which we had to cut out ourselves and seemed to
be ok,
> > however we did not get a gasket for space between cylinders and
> head, so
> > we used the one that was already there checked compression today
> and
> > got nothing on either cylinder. thinking the whole thing is out
of
> time
> > and possibly valves are open when they shouldnt be and or oil
leak
> is
> > cause of not having any compression. Since engine did run right
> after
> > I filled it with oil, I'm thinking the oil had something to do
with
> > giving the engine some compression while it was coming through
the
> > seams. Thanks for the help! You guys sure know your stuff. Hope
> to
> > remedy this soon.
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jeffanson2005"
> > wrote:
> > > Need some guidance with getting my 72 Z600 to fire. Recently
> rebuilt
> > > the top end of engine after having a valve bury itself into my
> > > drivers side piston. Had the cylinders machined and bought 1mm
> > > oversize pistons from Oconnors. Brass valve sleeves from
Miles and
> > > some other items from here and there.
> > > Got the engine to start, but ran really rough and had little
> power.
> > > I had a tow truck on the way to pick it up and take it to
another
> > > shop for a custom exhaust system to be installed. I ran the
car
> for
> > > mabey 3 or 4 minutes and when I parked it outside I noticed a
> large
> > > amount of engine oil coming out after I had turned the engine
off.
> > > Didnt have time to mess with it but it seemed to be coming
from
> the
> > > rear of the engine say around the cylinders and near the fan.
> > > About two weeks later the car returned with the new exhaust in
> place
> > > and I proceeded to inspect where the oil leak was from but
could
> not
> > > start the engine again. I check the timing, static, pulled the
> spark
> > > plugs and I'm getting a nice spark when trying to start.
Pulled
> the
> > > carb to see if there was any flooding involved, but didnt
notice
> too
> > > much fuel in the manifold. I'm getting fuel up to the carb
and can
> > > smell it when I'm trying to start with the aircleaner off. I'm
> > > assuming fuel is getting into the carb.
> > > Many experts on this forum could give me the basic things to
check
> > > for to get the engine to fire. Hope anyone could help. It
would be
> > > greatly appreciated. Tomorrow, I'm checking for proper
compression
> > > on each cylinder. Any other tips would be great.
> > > Engine cranks but does not fire.

[friend]

Jeff;
The tach drive does have a seal, but normally the leak comes from
inside the cable. One way of sealing the cable is shrink wrap (like you
use for electrical wires. Then back it out and see if the rubber seal is
on the inside of the cable. Lots are lost because of an owner removing the
cable and pulling on the cable housing causing the seal to come off, then
when they put it back in the seal pops out and is lost (parts book #17).
So you are really looking for two seals, one in the housing and one on the
cable.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of jeffanson2005
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 7:25 PM
To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: trouble starting engine after rebuild
Yup! Bill game me a clue. Found some oil coming out of the tach
cable, not speedo area. I need to check if there is supposed to be
an o-ring in there.
Also tach indicator jumps around (while tach should show around 1000
rmp its around 4000 then jumps in the red area while giving it a
slight rev.) Dont know if thats a cable problem or tach itself.
Jeff
Miami, FL

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Jeff;
> Try looking at the speedometer cable seal. Many I mean many
leak.
> Also, check the torque on the 6mm bolts, including the one under
the head.
> All of them should be at least 90 inch pounds.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of jeffanson2005
> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:38 PM
> To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: trouble starting engine after
rebuild
> Hey all. Just an update about the engine problem we had and how we
> managed to fix it.
> With big help from excellent advice from Bill and Dale, we
retorqued
> the head to 30 ft/lbs and oil leak has stopped. A few drops are
> coming out now, but havent located the exact position yet. Car was
> assembled slightly off time where the cam wheel line was not
> horizontal when setting the time. Once properly set we rechecked
> compression and now have 180 drivers, and 160 passenger cylinder.
> Much higher than I expected. I'll check it once a month during
break
> in period.
> I'm a happy boy again now I can finally drive the Z.
> Thanks again for all the helpful replies.
> Jeff
> Miami, FL
> 1972 Z600
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jeffanson2005"
> wrote:
> > 1 if the battery is low it will not crank enough to start. Batt
> is ok
> > and turns over engine easily
> > 2 if it flooded out, it will not start, need to pull plugs and
dry
> out.
> > Replace and try again. Plugs are nice and dry on both cylinders
> > 3 check the braker plate to see if it is moving up and down ?
> (this
> > is a problem with points maintaining their gap) Gap seems to be
ok
> and
> > moving normally
> > 4 What did you torque (Ft. Lbs.) the head to? Torque was
applied as
> > Haynes manual states proper lbs
> > 5 The engine leaks, did the cylinders have "O" rings at the
> base of
> > the cyliner? Leaks can occure from the rear of the engine
when "O"
> rings
> > are not replaced on the early cylinders, later ones didn't use
> them.
> > And, the shop manual doesn't show or talk to them. Did not
notice
> any O
> > rings when we disassembled cylinders, but you could be right
about
> where
> > the leak is coming from. I'll pull the fan off and turn over the
> engine
> > and see if I can spot any leakage in that area 6 Did you check
> the
> > spark plug wire ends to ensure they didn't come lose? The engine
> will
> > not start if both plugs are not fireing. Yes, they seem tight
and
> > getting good spark 7 Did you change the cam chain? (use a new
> one)
> > No. Used existing chain 8 when the head was rebuilt, was it
> checked
> > to see if it was warped? No, but had machinist check for
anything
> > abnormal and all was ok. 9 when replacing the head, were cap
> nuts
> > used on the rear center studs? Not sure. I'll look and see 10
> When
> > you had the cylinder bored, how many thousands over the piston
size
> did
> > you bore them to? Good question. I left that to the machinist
and
> gave
> > him all the specs from the Haynes manual. 11 When you put the
> > pistons in were they put in with the IN mark toward the intake
> valve?
> > Arrow on new pistons (1mm os) pointing forward as per directions
> from
> > manufacturer of new pistons. got them from O'connors. 12 did
> you
> > use factory gaskets? Somewhat. O'connors sent us sheets with
> printouts
> > on the gasket which we had to cut out ourselves and seemed to
be ok,
> > however we did not get a gasket for space between cylinders and
> head, so
> > we used the one that was already there checked compression today
> and
> > got nothing on either cylinder. thinking the whole thing is out
of
> time
> > and possibly valves are open when they shouldnt be and or oil
leak
> is
> > cause of not having any compression. Since engine did run right
> after
> > I filled it with oil, I'm thinking the oil had something to do
with
> > giving the engine some compression while it was coming through
the
> > seams. Thanks for the help! You guys sure know your stuff. Hope
> to
> > remedy this soon.
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "jeffanson2005"
> > wrote:
> > > Need some guidance with getting my 72 Z600 to fire. Recently
> rebuilt
> > > the top end of engine after having a valve bury itself into my
> > > drivers side piston. Had the cylinders machined and bought 1mm
> > > oversize pistons from Oconnors. Brass valve sleeves from
Miles and
> > > some other items from here and there.
> > > Got the engine to start, but ran really rough and had little
> power.
> > > I had a tow truck on the way to pick it up and take it to
another
> > > shop for a custom exhaust system to be installed. I ran the
car
> for
> > > mabey 3 or 4 minutes and when I parked it outside I noticed a
> large
> > > amount of engine oil coming out after I had turned the engine
off.
> > > Didnt have time to mess with it but it seemed to be coming
from
> the
> > > rear of the engine say around the cylinders and near the fan.
> > > About two weeks later the car returned with the new exhaust in
> place
> > > and I proceeded to inspect where the oil leak was from but
could
> not
> > > start the engine again. I check the timing, static, pulled the
> spark
> > > plugs and I'm getting a nice spark when trying to start.
Pulled
> the
> > > carb to see if there was any flooding involved, but didnt
notice
> too
> > > much fuel in the manifold. I'm getting fuel up to the carb
and can
> > > smell it when I'm trying to start with the aircleaner off. I'm
> > > assuming fuel is getting into the carb.
> > > Many experts on this forum could give me the basic things to
check
> > > for to get the engine to fire. Hope anyone could help. It
would be
> > > greatly appreciated. Tomorrow, I'm checking for proper
compression
> > > on each cylinder. Any other tips would be great.
> > > Engine cranks but does not fire.