European engine (or twin carb :-)

[redn600]

So from what I've read, it will be hard to find a twin carb head.
If anyone were to have a European rebuildable (or Hawaii) engine, what
would one go for? Just a core with a good cam.

[Miles]

To gain the 45hp increase you will need a euro/hawaiian head, the cam,
the larger carb, the headers. There should be lots of these parts use
in Germany. That's where I got my last cylinder head from. Not sure on
values in the USA, better ask OConnor, I recall he had some of those
parts.
Miles

[Miles]

Sorry, I meant to say, to gain 10hp increase, stock USA sold cars are
35 hp (except Hawaii, 45hp).
Miles

[redn600]

Thanks Miles! I had heard prices of $250-$350 for a good clean head a
few years back, not sure what cams were going for. (I would bet the
dual carb stuff would be pretty pricey.)
I guess if you aren't a purest, you can do the exhaust custom, and
just tune a larger carb . . .
I'll check with OConnor!
Anyone have an actual dyno sheet from a stock US 600 vs. Hawaii or
European model? (I'm talking "at the wheels" and "adjusted for
elevation and temperature" of course.)
-Dave

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Miles" wrote:
> Sorry, I meant to say, to gain 10hp increase, stock USA sold cars are
> 35 hp (except Hawaii, 45hp).
> Miles
> -- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Miles" wrote:
> > To gain the 45hp increase you will need a euro/hawaiian head, the
> cam,
> > the larger carb, the headers. There should be lots of these parts
> use
> > in Germany. That's where I got my last cylinder head from. Not sure
> on
> > values in the USA, better ask OConnor, I recall he had some of
> those
> > parts.
> > Miles
> > -- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "redn600" wrote:
> > > So from what I've read, it will be hard to find a twin carb head.
> > > If anyone were to have a European rebuildable (or Hawaii) engine,
> what
> > > would one go for? Just a core with a good cam.

[tommyjayallen]

Just for your info. Honda never made a twin carb 600. All of the twin carb heads you're likely to run across are 360 parts.
redn600 wrote:

> Thanks Miles! I had heard prices of $250-$350 for a good clean head a > few years back, not sure what cams were going for. (I would bet the > dual carb stuff would be pretty pricey.) > I guess if you aren't a purest, you can do the exhaust custom, and > just tune a larger carb . . .
> I'll check with OConnor!
> Anyone have an actual dyno sheet from a stock US 600 vs. Hawaii > or > European model? (I'm talking "at the wheels" and "adjusted for > elevation and temperature" of course.) > -Dave > --- In > 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com > , "Miles" wrote:
> > Sorry, I meant to say, to gain 10hp increase, stock USA sold cars are > > 35 hp (except Hawaii, 45hp).
> > Miles
> > -- In
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> , "Miles" wrote:
> > > To gain the 45hp increase you will need a euro/hawaiian head, the > > cam, > > > the larger carb, the headers. There should be lots of these parts > > use > > > in Germany. That's where I got my last cylinder head from. Not sure > > on > > > values in the USA, better ask OConnor, I recall he had some of > > those
> parts.
> > > Miles
> > > -- In
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> , "redn600" wrote:
> > > > So from what I've read, it will be hard to find a twin carb head.
> > > > If anyone were to have a European rebuildable (or Hawaii) engine, > > what > > > > would one go for? Just a core with a good cam.
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[Miles]

And just for your information, I had the chance to buy a Twin Carb
600cc engine and passed on it because the owner wanted me to take all
the junked out cars & parts and wouldn't just let me have the engine.
Our group member, user name twincarb600, was able to buy that same
engine, there is or was pics of it in the Photos section.
Miles

[Mickaël]

It's really a twin carb head for 600 or a modified 360 twin carb head?
I've compare the heads and the head bolts place are different.
Can you compare camshaft housing gasket?
http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/ ... /view/6872?
b=2
any picture of cambers?
Thanks

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Miles" wrote:
> And just for your information, I had the chance to buy a Twin Carb
> 600cc engine and passed on it because the owner wanted me to take all
> the junked out cars & parts and wouldn't just let me have the engine.
> Our group member, user name twincarb600, was able to buy that same
> engine, there is or was pics of it in the Photos section.
> Miles

[twincarb600]

Well here is the true about the twincarb 600. Honda never made a
production dual carb 600. Long ago back in the 70's or 80's there
was report of a racing dual carb top end from Mike Kefurt in North
Hollywood CA. I personally saw the setup that he had and I kind of
questioned it when i saw it in the early 80's. Kefurt wanted
$1200.00 back then for this special top end. At the time I didn't
have enough information as to weather it was real and or the money to
purchase it from him. Over the years of collecting different manuals
from all over the world I have never come across anything that states
that one was ever produced. What I have is truly a 360 head and the
beginnings of modification to use on a 600 motor. The 360 motors in
japan have a different oiling passages than what is used by the 600
motors. Someone at some time started to convert the original 600
lower cases and cylinders for the correct oiling that this head
needs. I kind of have a feeling that this head and rest of the motor
was what I saw when Kefurt had it. It appears that nobody ever
completed this project and some time I plan on doing so. As far as
the bolt pattern goes there is no difference between the 360 and 600
engine, it is only the oil passages that are different. the oil
comes up from the lower end in a separate hole insteaded of the rear
head bolts. The cylinders that came with this motor have already
been moded for these extra holes. Something that also is done in
Japan is to knock the sleeves out of the cylinders and put 74mm
sleeves and piston in place. What they end up using is the stock
74mm 600 piston and machine the dome to fit the combustion camber of
the 360 head. I also have a set of those pstons as well. Something
else that was made up for this motor was a cam with an adjustable
sprocket. This way when the head gets milled you can adjust out the
cam timing to keep the valves timed out properly. I have seen with
the 360 punched out to 500 cc and different carbs added to it push
around 90hp. They also twist the crankshafts on them and call them
180 cranks as well. Maybe some day I'll get time to finish what some
one started and maybe twist a crank for this motor as well. I'll see
about adding the picture of the pistons to the photo page.
Robert

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Micka�l wrote:
> It's really a twin carb head for 600 or a modified 360 twin carb
head?
> I've compare the heads and the head bolts place are different.
> Can you compare camshaft housing gasket?
http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/ ... s/view/687
2?
> b=2
> any picture of cambers?
> Thanks
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Miles" wrote:
> > And just for your information, I had the chance to buy a Twin
Carb
> > 600cc engine and passed on it because the owner wanted me to take
all
> > the junked out cars & parts and wouldn't just let me have the
engine.
> > Our group member, user name twincarb600, was able to buy that
same
> > engine, there is or was pics of it in the Photos section.
> > Miles

[Miles]

I used to belong to Kefurt's club, I still have some of the decals.
He offered many things he could not produce such as all fiberglass
front ends, 4 wheel disc brakes, he offered special towing clutches,
a high performance engine kit which included a 180 degree crank,
special head & cam that would produce 60hp. Later he would take my
money to belong to the 600 club, but there was never anything in the
newsletters about 600's only Civics.
I did visit his shop once on Lankershim BL. I bought a set of mags &
2 Honda 600 coupe toys. He gave me a copy of his Honda 600 database
on a 5 1/4" floppy which no one could read as it was on something
like a TRS80 or similar computer. He offerend me I could buy out his
huge inventory for 10 cents on the dollar but would have to buy it
all.
Miles

[Mark Kuran]

It's been interesting reading the postings about the twin carb or
European engine. I did read somewhere that there was a twin carb 360cc
model called the 360TS. It wasn't available here in Australia so I think
it may have been available either for the Japanese or European markets.
We also had the twin carb on our water-cooled 360 coupe. The air-cooled
coupe had the single carb. We didnt have the 6oo coupe available in
Australia. The 360 or 600 were available in the sedan.
I met about 20 years ago a guy who was the service manager for Honda
Australia during the time when the 600 and 360 sedans were being sold.
He had a 600 sedan that was highly modified and capable of 100mph plus.
It too had an offset crank, 180 degrees and I remember him telling me
about a Weber carburettor that he had on it. Because of the offset
crank, it had to have an offset camshaft too. He told me of a funny
story about him going through a police radar speed trap. When the police
caught up with him, they let him go because they couldnt believe that
little car could so fast. He later was involved with the first
generation Civics and prepared many for racing and rallying.
One other thing I remember him telling me about was that you could
physically see the higher lift and duration between early and late 600
camshafts. The early ones had the higher lift and longer duration. I'll
post more if I can recall any other details.
Mark, Melbourne Australia.

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Miles" wrote:
> I used to belong to Kefurt's club, I still have some of the decals.
> He offered many things he could not produce such as all fiberglass
> front ends, 4 wheel disc brakes, he offered special towing clutches,
> a high performance engine kit which included a 180 degree crank,
> special head & cam that would produce 60hp. Later he would take my
> money to belong to the 600 club, but there was never anything in the
> newsletters about 600's only Civics.
> I did visit his shop once on Lankershim BL. I bought a set of mags &
> 2 Honda 600 coupe toys. He gave me a copy of his Honda 600 database
> on a 5 1/4" floppy which no one could read as it was on something
> like a TRS80 or similar computer. He offerend me I could buy out his
> huge inventory for 10 cents on the dollar but would have to buy it
> all.
> Miles
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "twincarb600" rlawrey01@
> wrote:
> > Well here is the true about the twincarb 600. Honda never made a
> > production dual carb 600. Long ago back in the 70's or 80's there
> > was report of a racing dual carb top end from Mike Kefurt in North
> > Hollywood CA. I personally saw the setup that he had and I kind of
> > questioned it when i saw it in the early 80's. Kefurt wanted
> > $1200.00 back then for this special top end. At the time I didn't
> > have enough information as to weather it was real and or the money
> to
> > purchase it from him. Over the years of collecting different
> manuals
> > from all over the world I have never come across anything that
> states
> > that one was ever produced. What I have is truly a 360 head and
> the
> > beginnings of modification to use on a 600 motor. The 360 motors
> in
> > japan have a different oiling passages than what is used by the 600
> > motors. Someone at some time started to convert the original 600
> > lower cases and cylinders for the correct oiling that this head
> > needs. I kind of have a feeling that this head and rest of the
> motor
> > was what I saw when Kefurt had it. It appears that nobody ever
> > completed this project and some time I plan on doing so. As far as
> > the bolt pattern goes there is no difference between the 360 and
> 600
> > engine, it is only the oil passages that are different. the oil
> > comes up from the lower end in a separate hole insteaded of the
> rear
> > head bolts. The cylinders that came with this motor have already
> > been moded for these extra holes. Something that also is done in
> > Japan is to knock the sleeves out of the cylinders and put 74mm
> > sleeves and piston in place. What they end up using is the stock
> > 74mm 600 piston and machine the dome to fit the combustion camber
> of
> > the 360 head. I also have a set of those pstons as well.
> Something
> > else that was made up for this motor was a cam with an adjustable
> > sprocket. This way when the head gets milled you can adjust out
> the
> > cam timing to keep the valves timed out properly. I have seen with
> > the 360 punched out to 500 cc and different carbs added to it push
> > around 90hp. They also twist the crankshafts on them and call them
> > 180 cranks as well. Maybe some day I'll get time to finish what
> some
> > one started and maybe twist a crank for this motor as well. I'll
> see
> > about adding the picture of the pistons to the photo page.
> > Robert
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Micka�l wrote:
> > > It's really a twin carb head for 600 or a modified 360 twin carb
> > head?
> > > I've compare the heads and the head bolts place are different.
> > > Can you compare camshaft housing gasket?
http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/ ... s/view/687
> > 2?
> > > b=2
> > > any picture of cambers?
> > > Thanks
> > > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "Miles" wrote:
> > > > And just for your information, I had the chance to buy a Twin
> > Carb
> > > > 600cc engine and passed on it because the owner wanted me to
> take
> > all
> > > > the junked out cars & parts and wouldn't just let me have the
> > engine.
> > > > Our group member, user name twincarb600, was able to buy that
> > same
> > > > engine, there is or was pics of it in the Photos section.
> > > > Miles