Im thinking of convertion my 600 to E85, has anyone else considered
this route? I finally have a station that has it at the pump locally.
E85 with the 600?
Re: E85 with the 600?
Is that Ethonol? If it is I took a class on producing alcohol as a
fuel. We got all the way into making the still and what to use to make
the fuel with. To get the car to run they said you have to pre-heat the
fuel by wrapping a coiled tube around your radiator hose (a regular
car) and you had to start it with gasoline possibly I forget as it was
back in 1981.
If you made your own ethonol you had to add 5% gasoline just so you
could see the fire, in case of a fire. What would you have to do to
make a 600 run on it?
Miles
fuel. We got all the way into making the still and what to use to make
the fuel with. To get the car to run they said you have to pre-heat the
fuel by wrapping a coiled tube around your radiator hose (a regular
car) and you had to start it with gasoline possibly I forget as it was
back in 1981.
If you made your own ethonol you had to add 5% gasoline just so you
could see the fire, in case of a fire. What would you have to do to
make a 600 run on it?
Miles
--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "infinkc" wrote:
> Im thinking of convertion my 600 to E85, has anyone else considered
> this route? I finally have a station that has it at the pump locally.
Re: E85 with the 600?
Many, many years ago I had a grand plan where I was going to sign up for a whole bunch of junk mail and then convert the paper into alcohol I think the conversion was something like 1 ton of paper would create 20 gallons of alcohol. When I started to figure out how much the enzyme and the distillation was going to cost, I decided it was more effort than it was worth. Now, back to your question.....if you are going to convert your car over to E85, you are going to have to rejet your carb.
Where are you planning on obtaining the jets? If you are planning on using your current jets, don't enlarge them with a drill bit. At the least, use a multi-flute reamer. You will need to figure out how the energy content of a gallon of E85 compares with a gallon of gasoline and then increase the jet size so your engine is inhaling as much energy as you did with gas. Also, since E85 can have a higher octane number, you could go with a higher compression engine and unlock more of the energy content which is latent in the fuel.
Here is the biggest problem I see with E85......the fueling stations are not everywhere. Where I live (Oregon), there is one E85 station for every hundred gas stations which offer gasoline. So, if you convert your car to E85, you may have to plan your trips so you can find a place to refuel. I suspect the number of places offering E85 in the future will not increase but eventually disappear. So, then you are stuck with a car which needs to be changed back to gasoline. Maybe you should consider converting your car to propane. Lots of places sell propane and it will be around for as long as you live.
The thrill of alcohol and E85 as a fuel has gone bust since people realized it drove food prices up and having an energy source which competes with the food source is not a good idea. Not to mention the economic studies which show that it may take more energy to produce a gallon of alcohol than it does to create a gallon of gasoline. That coupled with the fact that if we were to outlaw gasoline and require all vehicles to run on alcohol, there are not enough crops in the world to produce the alcohol and feed the world's population (factoring in drought and pestilence). So, to produce the alcohol, you end up doing a synthesis on petroleum to create your alcohol to meet the world demand.
good luck,
Dale
Where are you planning on obtaining the jets? If you are planning on using your current jets, don't enlarge them with a drill bit. At the least, use a multi-flute reamer. You will need to figure out how the energy content of a gallon of E85 compares with a gallon of gasoline and then increase the jet size so your engine is inhaling as much energy as you did with gas. Also, since E85 can have a higher octane number, you could go with a higher compression engine and unlock more of the energy content which is latent in the fuel.
Here is the biggest problem I see with E85......the fueling stations are not everywhere. Where I live (Oregon), there is one E85 station for every hundred gas stations which offer gasoline. So, if you convert your car to E85, you may have to plan your trips so you can find a place to refuel. I suspect the number of places offering E85 in the future will not increase but eventually disappear. So, then you are stuck with a car which needs to be changed back to gasoline. Maybe you should consider converting your car to propane. Lots of places sell propane and it will be around for as long as you live.
The thrill of alcohol and E85 as a fuel has gone bust since people realized it drove food prices up and having an energy source which competes with the food source is not a good idea. Not to mention the economic studies which show that it may take more energy to produce a gallon of alcohol than it does to create a gallon of gasoline. That coupled with the fact that if we were to outlaw gasoline and require all vehicles to run on alcohol, there are not enough crops in the world to produce the alcohol and feed the world's population (factoring in drought and pestilence). So, to produce the alcohol, you end up doing a synthesis on petroleum to create your alcohol to meet the world demand.
good luck,
Dale
You're invited to Hollywood's biggest party: Get Oscars updates, red carpet pics and more at Moviefone.> Im thinking of convertion my 600 to E85, has anyone else considered
> this route? I finally have a station that has it at the pump > locally.
Re: E85 with the 600?
There are more things to think about when turning a normally aspired internal combustion engine over to alcohol. From the tank all they way to and including the piston rings. Including seals and other rubber items.
Right now the accelerator pump, fuel pump and throttle shaft seals are being eaten away by the 15% alcohol that is mixed already. Heck with the jets, you need a whole new fuel delivery system. But then if you throw enough money at anything it will work. Anyway, don't take my word for it, look it up on the internet and compare your Honda 600 with a Indy racer's fuel system.
Bill
Right now the accelerator pump, fuel pump and throttle shaft seals are being eaten away by the 15% alcohol that is mixed already. Heck with the jets, you need a whole new fuel delivery system. But then if you throw enough money at anything it will work. Anyway, don't take my word for it, look it up on the internet and compare your Honda 600 with a Indy racer's fuel system.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com [mailto:2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of > Miles > Sent:
> Monday, February 23, 2009 7:31
> PM
> To:
> 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [2cylinderhondas] Re: E85 with the 600?
> Is that Ethonol? If it is I took a class on producing alcohol as a
> fuel. We got all the way into making the still and what to use to make
> the fuel with. To get the car to run they said you have to pre-heat the
> fuel by wrapping a coiled tube around your radiator hose (a regular
> car) and you had to start it with gasoline possibly I forget as it was
> back in 1981.
> If you made your own ethonol you had to add 5%
> gasoline just so you
> could see the fire, in case of a fire. What would you
> have to do to
> make a 600 run on it?
> Miles
> --- In
> 2cylinderhondas@ yahoogroups. com
> ,
> "infinkc" wrote:
> > Im thinking of
> convertion my 600 to E85, has anyone else considered
> > this route? I
> finally have a station that has it at the pump
> locally.
Re: E85 with the 600?
Jet size is an issue. I think size was usually almost doubled to run alcohol in old race cars.
Also consider that fuel consumption increases drastically on alcohol. You would gain nothing
unless engine compression was increased to take advantage of it's higher octane rating. Just
my opinion, but corn based e85 is one of the biggest scams to be shoved down our throats in
recent years. Currently no benefit to it.
Also consider that fuel consumption increases drastically on alcohol. You would gain nothing
unless engine compression was increased to take advantage of it's higher octane rating. Just
my opinion, but corn based e85 is one of the biggest scams to be shoved down our throats in
recent years. Currently no benefit to it.
--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "infinkc" wrote:
> Im thinking of convertion my 600 to E85, has anyone else considered
> this route? I finally have a station that has it at the pump locally.
Re: E85 with the 600?
tunsys wrote:
need to multiply your jet size by 1.4 in order to get close. You need
roughly 140% of the mass fuel flow. You should tune cruise and idle to
lamda 1 (9.7 AFR) tapering down to lambda .8 (~7.8 AFR) or so at max
load. You may be able to get away with a leaner mixture but those are
good starting points. Ignition timing will need to be optimized
(usually advanced) to take advantage of the E85 characteristics. Also
keep in mind that you may need to update some of the rubber pieces in
the fuel system as the E content could cause some types of rubber to
swell (tank, lines, carby).
I agree that E85 is a scam though. It's caloric content is less than
what it takes to make it. A net negative energy source. It is great
stuff for turbo motors though, as the slow burn, high octane rating, and
incredible knock resistance are all good qualities to have in a fuel.
-Matt
E85 contains roughly 60% of the energy that gasoline does so you will> Jet size is an issue. I think size was usually almost doubled to run
> alcohol in old race cars.
> Also consider that fuel consumption increases drastically on alcohol.
> You would gain nothing
> unless engine compression was increased to take advantage of it's
> higher octane rating. Just
> my opinion, but corn based e85 is one of the biggest scams to be
> shoved down our throats in
> recent years. Currently no benefit to it.
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> , "infinkc" wrote:
> > Im thinking of convertion my 600 to E85, has anyone else considered
> > this route? I finally have a station that has it at the pump locally.
need to multiply your jet size by 1.4 in order to get close. You need
roughly 140% of the mass fuel flow. You should tune cruise and idle to
lamda 1 (9.7 AFR) tapering down to lambda .8 (~7.8 AFR) or so at max
load. You may be able to get away with a leaner mixture but those are
good starting points. Ignition timing will need to be optimized
(usually advanced) to take advantage of the E85 characteristics. Also
keep in mind that you may need to update some of the rubber pieces in
the fuel system as the E content could cause some types of rubber to
swell (tank, lines, carby).
I agree that E85 is a scam though. It's caloric content is less than
what it takes to make it. A net negative energy source. It is great
stuff for turbo motors though, as the slow burn, high octane rating, and
incredible knock resistance are all good qualities to have in a fuel.
-Matt