timing

dwb_07 · Post by **dwb_07** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:40 am

Hopefully I can write well enough to clearly define my dilemma. I have on numerous occasions attempted to statically time my 1970 N600. I am using a meter and continuity to determine when the points open and referencing the "F" mark on the pulley. When I position everything properly I can't slide the retard in enough to have points open when the marks are lined up. In this almost lined up position the motor barely runs. Now if I advance the the mechanism to about the middle notch the motor runs fine, but the pulley mark is about 15 degrees advanced/before the "F" mark. I should note that when the crank is at "T" the cam sprocket mark/line/flat is perfectly parallel with the cam housing. I should also note that I can get the motor to run sweetly but the marks don't even come close to being where they should be.
I am hoping for an answer, not a theory.

John Mills · Post by **John Mills** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:12 pm

You are not going to get a definitive answer over the internet. There are so many variables. Everything needs to be checked and confirmed. Cam position, chain stretch, wear of parts, and the technique of the mechanic.

richmccolman · Post by **richmccolman** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:27 pm

I ran into the same issue when checking the timing on my coupe sometime after I got it. It turned out that the point gap was a bit too small. After resetting to the proper gap using a feeler gauge (0.012-0.016 in), it was within the adjustment range and then easy to set the ignition timing. (If checking/readjusting the point gap doesn't do it, I'd suspect that the cam timing is off - a much bigger issue. The distributor / point-trigging cam, of course, is fastened to the camshaft.)
Gook luck with it!
Richard

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, John Mills wrote:
> You are not going to get a definitive answer over the internet. There are so many variables. Everything needs to be checked and confirmed. Cam position, chain stretch, wear of parts, and the technique of the mechanic.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dwb_07
> To: 2cylinderhondas Sent: Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:40 am
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] timing
> Hopefully I can write well enough to clearly define my dilemma. I have on numerous occasions attempted to statically time my 1970 N600. I am using a meter and continuity to determine when the points open and referencing the "F" mark on the pulley. When I position everything properly I can't slide the retard in enough to have points open when the marks are lined up. In this almost lined up position the motor barely runs. Now if I advance the the mechanism to about the middle notch the motor runs fine, but the pulley mark is about 15 degrees advanced/before the "F" mark. I should note that when the crank is at "T" the cam sprocket mark/line/flat is perfectly parallel with the cam housing. I should also note that I can get the motor to run sweetly but the marks don't even come close to being where they should be.
> I am hoping for an answer, not a theory.

feltonminicycle · Post by **feltonminicycle** » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:55 am

If you are doing static timing using a meter disconnect the blue lead from the coil. At the Honda motorcycle shop I worked for we used an instrument cluster bulb (12v) with 2 small aligator clips to test the points opening - in that case you need the blue wire connected.
One possibility is that the pulley has slipped on the timing pulley, It is possible but is not very common.
Make sure the points are clean and no metallic dust. I always clean points with 400 grit wet/dry paper then a piece of paper to remove that dust. Then gap to .015". You might also want to make sure the mechanical advance springs are tight and cam is not rusted stuck advanced.
Miles

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> I ran into the same issue when checking the timing on my coupe sometime after I got it. It turned out that the point gap was a bit too small. After resetting to the proper gap using a feeler gauge (0.012-0.016 in), it was within the adjustment range and then easy to set the ignition timing. (If checking/readjusting the point gap doesn't do it, I'd suspect that the cam timing is off - a much bigger issue. The distributor / point-trigging cam, of course, is fastened to the camshaft.)
> Gook luck with it!
> Richard
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, John Mills wrote:
> > You are not going to get a definitive answer over the internet. There are so many variables. Everything needs to be checked and confirmed. Cam position, chain stretch, wear of parts, and the technique of the mechanic.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dwb_07
> > To: 2cylinderhondas > Sent: Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:40 am
> > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] timing
> > Hopefully I can write well enough to clearly define my dilemma. I have on numerous occasions attempted to statically time my 1970 N600. I am using a meter and continuity to determine when the points open and referencing the "F" mark on the pulley. When I position everything properly I can't slide the retard in enough to have points open when the marks are lined up. In this almost lined up position the motor barely runs. Now if I advance the the mechanism to about the middle notch the motor runs fine, but the pulley mark is about 15 degrees advanced/before the "F" mark. I should note that when the crank is at "T" the cam sprocket mark/line/flat is perfectly parallel with the cam housing. I should also note that I can get the motor to run sweetly but the marks don't even come close to being where they should be.
> > I am hoping for an answer, not a theory.

Alan Stanyon · Post by **Alan Stanyon** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:00 pm

I have had issues with the points cam peg not sitting in the peg locator, as you tighten it slips out and locks in any position you tighten it in, its tricky to hold it still and refit the bolt, you can tell if it has happened if you remove the points base plate and cam and see a round punch mark on the cam shaft end where the peg locator is, been there done that!!!!
Alan
To: 2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com From: z600miles@...
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:55:39 +0000 Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: timing
If you are doing static timing using a meter disconnect the blue lead from the coil. At the Honda motorcycle shop I worked for we used an instrument cluster bulb (12v) with 2 small aligator clips to test the points opening - in that case you need the blue wire connected.
One possibility is that the pulley has slipped on the timing pulley, It is possible but is not very common.
Make sure the points are clean and no metallic dust. I always clean points with 400 grit wet/dry paper then a piece of paper to remove that dust. Then gap to .015". You might also want to make sure the mechanical advance springs are tight and cam is not rusted stuck advanced.
Miles

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> I ran into the same issue when checking the timing on my coupe sometime after I got it. It turned out that the point gap was a bit too small. After resetting to the proper gap using a feeler gauge (0.012-0.016 in), it was within the adjustment range and then easy to set the ignition timing. (If checking/readjusting the point gap doesn't do it, I'd suspect that the cam timing is off - a much bigger issue. The distributor / point-trigging cam, of course, is fastened to the camshaft.)
> Gook luck with it!
> Richard
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, John Mills wrote:
> > You are not going to get a definitive answer over the internet. There are so many variables. Everything needs to be checked and confirmed. Cam position, chain stretch, wear of parts, and the technique of the mechanic.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dwb_07
> > To: 2cylinderhondas > Sent: Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:40 am
> > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] timing
> > Hopefully I can write well enough to clearly define my dilemma. I have on numerous occasions attempted to statically time my 1970 N600. I am using a meter and continuity to determine when the points open and referencing the "F" mark on the pulley. When I position everything properly I can't slide the retard in enough to have points open when the marks are lined up. In this almost lined up position the motor barely runs. Now if I advance the the mechanism to about the middle notch the motor runs fine, but the pulley mark is about 15 degrees advanced/before the "F" mark. I should note that when the crank is at "T" the cam sprocket mark/line/flat is perfectly parallel with the cam housing. I should also note that I can get the motor to run sweetly but the marks don't even come close to being where they should be.
> > I am hoping for an answer, not a theory.

dwb_07 · Post by **dwb_07** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:46 pm

Many thanks Richard, Miles and Alan for completely reading my post and realizing I had checked everything except the points gap. It turns out to be the gap. When I thought about it I realized the bigger the gap the sooner the points will open. I reset the gap and now everything makes sense. I should mention another point assembly I have has the problem Alan posed. The slot is slightly elongated which would show the same timing issue.
I am using a Ford TFI and GMC DIS coil, so my points are just a low amp trigger. I never correctly gaped them because dwell was no longer a part of the equation.
Thanks again for the help.

--- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, Alan Stanyon wrote:
> I have had issues with the points cam peg not sitting in the peg locator, as you tighten it slips out and locks in any position you tighten it in, its tricky to hold it still and refit the bolt, you can tell if it has happened if you remove the points base plate and cam and see a round punch mark on the cam shaft end where the peg locator is, been there done that!!!!
> Alan
> To:
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
> From: z600miles@...
> Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:55:39 +0000
> Subject: [2cylinderhondas] Re: timing
> If you are doing static timing using a meter disconnect the blue lead from the coil. At the Honda motorcycle shop I worked for we used an instrument cluster bulb (12v) with 2 small aligator clips to test the points opening - in that case you need the blue wire connected.
> One possibility is that the pulley has slipped on the timing pulley, It is possible but is not very common.
> Make sure the points are clean and no metallic dust. I always clean points with 400 grit wet/dry paper then a piece of paper to remove that dust. Then gap to .015". You might also want to make sure the mechanical advance springs are tight and cam is not rusted stuck advanced.
> Miles
> --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, "richmccolman" wrote:
> > I ran into the same issue when checking the timing on my coupe sometime after I got it. It turned out that the point gap was a bit too small. After resetting to the proper gap using a feeler gauge (0.012-0.016 in), it was within the adjustment range and then easy to set the ignition timing. (If checking/readjusting the point gap doesn't do it, I'd suspect that the cam timing is off - a much bigger issue. The distributor / point-trigging cam, of course, is fastened to the camshaft.)
> > Gook luck with it!
> > Richard
> > --- In
2cylinderhondas@yahoogroups.com
, John Mills wrote:
> > > You are not going to get a definitive answer over the internet. There are so many variables. Everything needs to be checked and confirmed. Cam position, chain stretch, wear of parts, and the technique of the mechanic.
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: dwb_07
> > > To: 2cylinderhondas > > Sent: Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:40 am
> > > Subject: [2cylinderhondas] timing
> > > Hopefully I can write well enough to clearly define my dilemma. I have on numerous occasions attempted to statically time my 1970 N600. I am using a meter and continuity to determine when the points open and referencing the "F" mark on the pulley. When I position everything properly I can't slide the retard in enough to have points open when the marks are lined up. In this almost lined up position the motor barely runs. Now if I advance the the mechanism to about the middle notch the motor runs fine, but the pulley mark is about 15 degrees advanced/before the "F" mark. I should note that when the crank is at "T" the cam sprocket mark/line/flat is perfectly parallel with the cam housing. I should also note that I can get the motor to run sweetly but the marks don't even come close to being where they should be.
> > > I am hoping for an answer, not a theory.