Curious if anyone knows about the various cams available for our little cars. I know that the Hawaiian cam should yield more power, and assume the sig erson cam would also add some punch. The question I have is, what cam is going to make the most power? Are there any drivability issues for either?
Matt
Hot cams
Re: Hot cams
Hi Matt;
The factory cam for the 42 to 45 HP motor using several different carbs is the only one made to be used without adding lash caps.
Although it is possible that other cams were manufactured most of the others were regrinds of the 35 HP cam where material was removed from the back side of the lobes to give greater height and duration. When material is removed it has to be replaced as the eccentric on the rocker shaft only allows so much adjustment. Installing lash caps on top of the valve ends to ride between the cam and the valve allows for continued adjustment using the same rocker arm shaft. Cheapest way to gain more lift, and lash caps made for a much quieter running engine.
There are lots of companies available to regrind your cam and provide lash caps.
But take a look at the power curve associated with the Honda 600 motor. It seems that using electronic ignition allows for a greater spark curve as the OEM mechanical setup would pass the point duration (also referred to floating). In some instances the motor would die and when it dropped to slower rpm's would start back up again. What RPM was that, it all depends on the condition of the beaker plate, advancer assembly, points and condenser.
Also, gearing in the transmission only allowed the car to go so fast with the available RPM's. So the key is gaining RPM's without having to change the gearing, cylinder/piston size, cam duration or the carb to attain greater Horse Power. But here again, the crankshaft is only rated to 8 thousand RPM's.
So, back to your original question, what is going to add punch, all the above and like new original parts to build a like new engine. Remember, these parts are as much as 43 years old, with some parts being reproduced up until the mid 70's but who is to say which are early and late production?
Bill
The factory cam for the 42 to 45 HP motor using several different carbs is the only one made to be used without adding lash caps.
Although it is possible that other cams were manufactured most of the others were regrinds of the 35 HP cam where material was removed from the back side of the lobes to give greater height and duration. When material is removed it has to be replaced as the eccentric on the rocker shaft only allows so much adjustment. Installing lash caps on top of the valve ends to ride between the cam and the valve allows for continued adjustment using the same rocker arm shaft. Cheapest way to gain more lift, and lash caps made for a much quieter running engine.
There are lots of companies available to regrind your cam and provide lash caps.
But take a look at the power curve associated with the Honda 600 motor. It seems that using electronic ignition allows for a greater spark curve as the OEM mechanical setup would pass the point duration (also referred to floating). In some instances the motor would die and when it dropped to slower rpm's would start back up again. What RPM was that, it all depends on the condition of the beaker plate, advancer assembly, points and condenser.
Also, gearing in the transmission only allowed the car to go so fast with the available RPM's. So the key is gaining RPM's without having to change the gearing, cylinder/piston size, cam duration or the carb to attain greater Horse Power. But here again, the crankshaft is only rated to 8 thousand RPM's.
So, back to your original question, what is going to add punch, all the above and like new original parts to build a like new engine. Remember, these parts are as much as 43 years old, with some parts being reproduced up until the mid 70's but who is to say which are early and late production?
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> orangecoupe
> Sent:
> Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:30
> AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> Curious if anyone knows about the various cams available for our little > cars. I know that the Hawaiian cam should yield more power, and assume the sig > erson cam would also add some punch. The question I have is, what cam is going > to make the most power? Are there any drivability issues for > either?
> Matt
-
Matt Ferkey
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:16 pm
Re: Hot cams
Thanks bill, I understand the limitations of the crank, and that regearing the transmission is out of the realm of reality. �My question was meant to be a little more specific, comparing two specific cams.
I have a z600 that I am looking to rebuild the motor in. �I have domed pistons that are 1mm over that I am planning on using. �I also plan on porting the head and running an electronic ignition. �I have a Hawaiian cam that I was going to use, but just came across a "Sig Erson" cam that was mentioned in the magazine article "Rapid Transit" with the Bill Krause modified 600 coupe. �So, my question was what cam will offer the most torque. �I'm not as concerned with top speed as much as it being plenty zippy for in town traffic.
Matt
I have a z600 that I am looking to rebuild the motor in. �I have domed pistons that are 1mm over that I am planning on using. �I also plan on porting the head and running an electronic ignition. �I have a Hawaiian cam that I was going to use, but just came across a "Sig Erson" cam that was mentioned in the magazine article "Rapid Transit" with the Bill Krause modified 600 coupe. �So, my question was what cam will offer the most torque. �I'm not as concerned with top speed as much as it being plenty zippy for in town traffic.
Matt
On Saturday, January 28, 2012, � wrote:
> �
> Hi Matt;
> �
> ��� The factory cam for the 42 to 45 HP motor using several different carbs is the only one made to be used without adding lash caps.� Although it is possible that other cams were manufactured most of�the others were regrinds of the 35 HP cam where material was removed from the back side of the lobes to give greater height and duration.� When material is removed it has to be replaced as the eccentric on the rocker shaft only allows so much adjustment.� Installing lash caps on top of the valve ends to ride between the cam and the valve allows for continued adjustment using the same rocker arm shaft.� Cheapest way to gain more lift, and lash caps made for a much quieter running engine.�
> �
> ����There are lots of companies available to regrind your cam and provide lash caps.� � > � > ��� But take a look at the power curve associated with the Honda 600 motor.� It seems that using electronic ignition allows for a greater spark curve as the OEM�mechanical setup would pass the point duration (also referred to floating).�� In�some�instances the motor would die and when it dropped to slower rpm's�would start back up again.� �What RPM was that, it all depends on the condition of the beaker plate, advancer assembly, points and condenser.�
> �
> ��� Also, gearing in the transmission only allowed the car to go so fast with the available RPM's.� So the key is gaining RPM's without having to change the gearing, cylinder/piston size, cam duration or the carb to attain greater�Horse Power.� But here again, the crankshaft is only rated�to�8 thousand RPM's.��
> �
> ��� So, back to your original question, what is going to add punch, all the above and like new original parts to build a like new engine.� Remember, these parts�are as much as 43 years old, with some parts being reproduced up until the mid 70's but who is to say which are early and late production?�
> �
> �
> Bill
> �
> �
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of orangecoupe
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:30 AM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> �
> Curious if anyone knows about the various cams available for our little cars. I know that the Hawaiian cam should yield more power, and assume the sig erson cam would also add some punch. The question I have is, what cam is going to make the most power? Are there any drivability issues for either?
> Matt
Re: Hot cams
Hi Matt;
Your 1.0 over pistons and a the 45hp cam will help, but you need the larger Carb and angle port head with the exhaust headers to pull out the extra hp and rpm's. I have none of that, in fact I went to standard pistons with a late carb, standard cam, mechanical ignition (in other words stock) and have no problems in traffic. I do have an oil cooler on it though because I like the spin on filter giving it better oil filtering.
Bill
Your 1.0 over pistons and a the 45hp cam will help, but you need the larger Carb and angle port head with the exhaust headers to pull out the extra hp and rpm's. I have none of that, in fact I went to standard pistons with a late carb, standard cam, mechanical ignition (in other words stock) and have no problems in traffic. I do have an oil cooler on it though because I like the spin on filter giving it better oil filtering.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Matt
> Ferkey
> Sent:
> Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:42 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners]
> Hot cams
> Thanks bill, I understand the limitations of the crank, and that regearing > the transmission is out of the realm of reality. My question was meant > to be a little more specific, comparing two specific cams.
> I have a z600
> that I am looking to rebuild the motor in. I have domed pistons that are > 1mm over that I am planning on using. I also plan on porting the head > and running an electronic ignition. I have a Hawaiian cam that I was > going to use, but just came across a "Sig Erson" cam that was mentioned in the > magazine article "Rapid Transit" with the Bill Krause modified 600 coupe.
> So, my question was what cam will offer the most torque. I'm not > as concerned with top speed as much as it being plenty zippy for in town > traffic.
> Matt
> On Saturday, January 28, 2012,
> billmyong@...
> wrote:
> > Hi Matt;
> The factory cam for the 42 to 45 HP motor using several > different carbs is the only one made to be used without adding lash > caps. Although it is possible that other cams were manufactured most > of the others were regrinds of the 35 HP cam where material was removed > from the back side of the lobes to give greater height and duration.
> When material is removed it has to be replaced as the eccentric on the rocker > shaft only allows so much adjustment. Installing lash caps on top of the > valve ends to ride between the cam and the valve allows for continued > adjustment using the same rocker arm shaft. Cheapest way to gain more > lift, and lash caps made for a much quieter running engine.
> > There are lots of companies available
> to regrind your cam and provide lash caps.
> But take a look at the power curve associated with the > Honda 600 motor. It seems that using electronic ignition allows for a > greater spark curve as the OEM mechanical setup would pass the point > duration (also referred to floating). In some instances > the motor would die and when it dropped to slower rpm's would start back > up again. What RPM was that, it all depends on the condition of > the beaker plate, advancer assembly, points and condenser.
> > Also, gearing in the transmission only
> allowed the car to go so fast with the available RPM's. So the key is > gaining RPM's without having to change the gearing, cylinder/piston size, cam > duration or the carb to attain greater Horse Power. But here again, > the crankshaft is only rated to 8 thousand > RPM's.
> > So, back to your
> original question, what is going to add punch, all the above and like new > original parts to build a like new engine. Remember, these > parts are as much as 43 years old, with some parts being reproduced up > until the mid 70's but who is to say which are early and late > production?
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of orangecoupe
> > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:30 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> Curious if anyone knows about the various cams available for our little cars.
> I know that the Hawaiian cam should yield more power, and assume the sig erson > cam would also add some punch. The question I have is, what cam is going to > make the most power? Are there any drivability issues for > either?
> > Matt
-
Matt Ferkey
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:16 pm
Re: Hot cams
So, you do not have any experience with the sig erson cam. �Does anyone else on this forum know anything about it? �I am interested in learning more about the oil cooler that gives you a spin on oil filter though. �I think that is something that every 600 owner would benefit from.
Matt
Matt
On Saturday, January 28, 2012, � wrote:
> �
> Hi Matt;
> �
> ��� Your 1.0 over pistons and a the 45hp cam will help, but you need the larger Carb and angle port head with the exhaust headers to pull out the extra hp and rpm's.� I have none of that, in fact I went to standard pistons with a late carb, standard cam, mechanical ignition (in other words stock)�and have no problems in traffic.� I do have an oil cooler on it though because I like the spin on filter�giving it better oil filtering.���
> �
> �
> Bill
> �
> �
> ��
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:42 PM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> �
> Thanks bill, I understand the limitations of the crank, and that regearing the transmission is out of the realm of reality. �My question was meant to be a little more specific, comparing two specific cams.
> I have a z600 that I am looking to rebuild the motor in. �I have domed pistons that are 1mm over that I am planning on using. �I also plan on porting the head and running an electronic ignition. �I have a Hawaiian cam that I was going to use, but just came across a "Sig Erson" cam that was mentioned in the magazine article "Rapid Transit" with the Bill Krause modified 600 coupe. �So, my question was what cam will offer the most torque. �I'm not as concerned with top speed as much as it being plenty zippy for in town traffic.
> Matt
> On Saturday, January 28, 2012, � wrote:
>> �
>> Hi Matt;
>> �
>> ��� The factory cam for the 42 to 45 HP motor using several different carbs is the only one made to be used without adding lash caps.� Although it is possible that other cams were manufactured most of�the others were regrinds of the 35 HP cam where material was removed from the back side of the lobes to give greater height and duration.� When material is removed it has to be replaced as the eccentric on the rocker shaft only allows so much adjustment.� Installing lash caps on top of the valve ends to ride between the cam and the valve allows for continued adjustment using the same rocker arm shaft.� Cheapest way to gain more lift, and lash caps made for a much quieter running engine.�
>> �
>> ����There are lots of companies available to regrind your cam and provide lash caps.� � >> � >> ��� But take a look at the power curve associated with the Honda 600 motor.� It seems that using electronic ignition allows for a greater spark curve as the OEM�mechanical setup would pass the point duration (also referred to floating).�� In�some�instances the motor would die and when it dropped to slower rpm's�would start back up again.� �What RPM was that, it all depends on the condition of the beaker plate, advancer assembly, points and condenser.�
>> �
>> ��� Also, gearing in the transmission only allowed the car to go so fast with the available RPM's.� So the key is gaining RPM's without having to change the gearing, cylinder/piston size, cam duration or the carb to attain greater�Horse Power.� But here again, the crankshaft is only rated�to�8 thousand RPM's.��
>> �
>> ��� So, back to your original question, what is going to add punch, all the above and like new original parts to build a like new engine.� Remember, these parts�are as much as 43 years old, with some parts being reproduced up until the mid 70's but who is to say which are early and late production?�
>> �
>> �
>> Bill
>> �
>> �
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of orangecoupe
>> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:30 AM
>> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
>> �
>> Curious if anyone knows about the various cams available for our little cars. I know that the Hawaiian cam should yield more power, and assume the sig erson cam would also add some punch. The question I have is, what cam is going to make the most power?
Re: Hot cams
What experience is necessary Matt? This is not an argument, just plain facts, the limits of the Honda 600 motor is all that must be understood. How many Honda 600 motors need to be rebuilt to discover the limits of the cam. My experience is limited to the over 800 Honda 600 motors I have rebuilt, restored and modified.
When you pull apart your first Honda 600 motor that is filled with metal chips that came from a internal component that failed, you too will understand that these motors have their limits. These groups are loaded with stories of modifications that didn't work. Remember, a race car is built for that race and rebuilt for the next. Reliable transportation came from testing by Honda of America and the motor was detuned for a reason.
Bill
When you pull apart your first Honda 600 motor that is filled with metal chips that came from a internal component that failed, you too will understand that these motors have their limits. These groups are loaded with stories of modifications that didn't work. Remember, a race car is built for that race and rebuilt for the next. Reliable transportation came from testing by Honda of America and the motor was detuned for a reason.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Matt
> Ferkey
> Sent:
> Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:00 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners]
> Hot cams
> So, you do not have any experience with the sig erson cam. Does > anyone else on this forum know anything about it? I am interested in > learning more about the oil cooler that gives you a spin on oil filter though.
> I think that is something that every 600 owner would benefit > from.
> Matt
> On Saturday, January 28, 2012, billmyong@...
> wrote:
> > Hi Matt;
> Your 1.0 over pistons and a the 45hp cam will help, but you > need the larger Carb and angle port head with the exhaust headers to pull out > the extra hp and rpm's. I have none of that, in fact I went to standard > pistons with a late carb, standard cam, mechanical ignition (in other words > stock) and have no problems in traffic. I do have an oil cooler on > it though because I like the spin on filter giving it better oil > filtering.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:42 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> > Thanks bill, I understand the limitations of the crank,
> and that regearing the transmission is out of the realm of reality. My > question was meant to be a little more specific, comparing two specific > cams.
> > I have a z600 that I am looking to rebuild the motor in. I > have domed pistons that are 1mm over that I am planning on using. I also > plan on porting the head and running an electronic ignition. I have a > Hawaiian cam that I was going to use, but just came across a "Sig Erson" cam > that was mentioned in the magazine article "Rapid Transit" with the Bill > Krause modified 600 coupe. So, my question was what cam will offer the > most torque. I'm not as concerned with top speed as much as it being > plenty zippy for in town traffic.
> Matt
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2012,
> billmyong@...
> wrote:
> >> Hi Matt;
> >> The factory cam for the 42 to 45 HP
> motor using several different carbs is the only one made to be used without > adding lash caps. Although it is possible that other cams were > manufactured most of the others were regrinds of the 35 HP cam where > material was removed from the back side of the lobes to give greater height > and duration. When material is removed it has to be replaced as the > eccentric on the rocker shaft only allows so much adjustment. Installing > lash caps on top of the valve ends to ride between the cam and the valve > allows for continued adjustment using the same rocker arm shaft.
> Cheapest way to gain more lift, and lash caps made for a much quieter running > engine.
> >> There are
> lots of companies available to regrind your cam and provide lash caps.
> >> But take a look at
> the power curve associated with the Honda 600 motor. It seems that using > electronic ignition allows for a greater spark curve as the > OEM mechanical setup would pass the point duration (also referred to > floating). In some instances the motor would die and > when it dropped to slower rpm's would start back up again.
> What RPM was that, it all depends on the condition of the beaker plate, > advancer assembly, points and condenser.
> Also, gearing in the transmission only allowed the car to > go so fast with the available RPM's. So the key is gaining RPM's without > having to change the gearing, cylinder/piston size, cam duration or the carb > to attain greater Horse Power. But here again, the crankshaft is > only rated to 8 thousand RPM's.
> >> So, back to your original question, what
> is going to add punch, all the above and like new original parts to build a > like new engine. Remember, these parts are as much as 43 years old, > with some parts being reproduced up until the mid 70's but who is to say which > are early and late production?
> >> Bill
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of orangecoupe
> >> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:30
> AM
> >> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> >> Curious if anyone knows about the various cams
> available for our little cars. I know that the Hawaiian cam should yield more > power, and assume the sig erson cam would also add some punch. The question I > have is, what cam is going to make the most power?
-
Harry Lineback
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:07 pm
Re: Hot cams
Bill
YOU are such a wise and informative leader the Honda 600 community.
Thanks for always being there and giving so much of your time and energy to this classic cause.
Harry
Sent from my iPhone
YOU are such a wise and informative leader the Honda 600 community.
Thanks for always being there and giving so much of your time and energy to this classic cause.
Harry
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:26, wrote:
What experience is necessary
Matt? This is not an argument, just plain facts, the limits of the Honda 600 motor is all that must be understood. How many Honda 600 motors need to be rebuilt to discover the limits of the cam. My experience is limited to the over 800 Honda 600 motors I have rebuilt, restored and modified.
When you pull apart your first Honda 600 motor that is filled with metal chips that came from a internal component that failed, you too will understand that these motors have their limits. These groups are loaded with stories of modifications that didn't work. Remember, a race car is built for that race and rebuilt for the next. Reliable transportation came from testing by Honda of America and the motor was detuned for a reason.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Matt
> Ferkey
> Sent:
> Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:00 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners]
> Hot cams
> So, you do not have any experience with the sig erson cam. Does > anyone else on this forum know anything about it? I am interested in > learning more about the oil cooler that gives you a spin on oil filter though.
> I think that is something that every 600 owner would benefit > from.
> Matt
> On Saturday, January 28, 2012, billmyong@...
> wrote:
> > Hi Matt;
> Your 1.0 over pistons and a the 45hp cam will help, but you > need the larger Carb and angle port head with the exhaust headers to pull out > the extra hp and rpm's. I have none of that, in fact I went to standard > pistons with a late carb, standard cam, mechanical ignition (in other words > stock) and have no problems in traffic. I do have an oil cooler on > it though because I like the spin on filter giving it better oil > filtering.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:42 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> > Thanks bill, I understand the limitations of the crank,
> and that regearing the transmission is out of the realm of reality. My > question was meant to be a little more specific, comparing two specific > cams.
> > I have a z600 that I am looking to rebuild the motor in. I > have domed pistons that are 1mm over that I am planning on using. I also > plan on porting the head and running an electronic ignition. I have a > Hawaiian cam that I was going to use, but just came across a "Sig Erson" cam > that was mentioned in the magazine article "Rapid Transit" with the Bill > Krause modified 600 coupe. So, my question was what cam will offer the > most torque. I'm not as concerned with top speed as much as it being > plenty zippy for in town traffic.
> Matt
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2012,
> billmyong@...
> wrote:
> >> Hi Matt;
> >> The factory cam for the 42 to 45 HP
> motor using several different carbs is the only one made to be used without > adding lash caps. Although it is possible that other cams were > manufactured most of the others were regrinds of the 35 HP cam where > material was removed from the back side of the lobes to give greater height > and duration. When material is removed it has to be replaced as the > eccentric on the rocker shaft only allows so much adjustment. Installing > lash caps on top of the valve ends to ride between the cam and the valve > allows for continued adjustment using the same rocker arm shaft.
> Cheapest way to gain more lift, and lash caps made for a much quieter running > engine.
> >> There are
> lots of companies available to regrind your cam and provide lash caps.
> >> But take a look at
> the power curve associated with the Honda 600 motor. It seems that using > electronic ignition allows for a greater spark curve as the > OEM mechanical setup would pass the point duration (also referred to > floating). In some instances the motor would die and > when it dropped to slower rpm's would start back up again.
> What RPM was that, it all depends on the condition of the beaker plate, > advancer assembly, points and condenser.
> Also, gearing in the transmission only allowed the car to > go so fast with the available RPM's. So the key is gaining RPM's without > having to change the gearing, cylinder/piston size, cam duration or the carb > to attain greater Horse Power. But here again, the crankshaft is > only rated to 8 thousand RPM's.
> >> So, back to your original question, what
> is going to add punch, all the above and like new original parts to build a > like new engine. Remember, these parts are as much as 43 years old, > with some parts being reproduced up until the mid 70's but who is to say which > are early and late production?
> >> Bill
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of orangecoupe
> >> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 6:30
> AM
> >> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> >> Curious if anyone knows about the various cams
> available for our little cars. I know that the Hawaiian cam should yield more > power, and assume the sig erson cam would also add some punch. The question I > have is, what cam is going to make the most power?
-
Matt Ferkey
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:16 pm
Re: Hot cams
I am not trying to make a 10 second 600. �I am trying to find my best options available for the cam in my daily driver. �I am not trying to sound condescending or question your experience, just looking for someones real world experience with different specific cams in our motors. �I understand that these motors have limits, and trust your expertise, but like you said, Honda did the research and development and still had different cam options for the 600.
Matt
Matt
On Sunday, January 29, 2012, Harry Lineback wrote:
> �
> Bill
> YOU are such a wise and informative leader the Honda 600 community.
> Thanks for always being there and giving so much of your time and energy to this classic cause.
> Harry
> Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:26, wrote:
> �
> ������ What experience is necessary Matt?� This is not an argument, just plain facts, the limits of the Honda 600 motor is all that must be understood.� How many Honda 600 motors need to be rebuilt to discover the limits of the cam.� My experience is limited to the over 800 Honda 600 motors I have rebuilt, restored and modified.� When you pull apart your first Honda 600 motor that is filled with metal chips that came from a internal component that failed, you too will understand that these motors have their limits.� These groups are loaded with stories of modifications that didn't work.� Remember, a race car is built for that race and rebuilt for the next.��Reliable transportation came from testing by Honda of America�and the motor was detuned for a reason.�
> �
> Bill
> �
> �
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:00 AM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> �
> So, you do not have any experience with the sig erson cam. �Does anyone else on this forum know anything about it? �I am interested in learning more about the oil cooler that gives you a spin on oil filter though. �I think that is something that every 600 owner would benefit from.
> Matt
> On Saturday, January 28, 2012, � wrote:
>> �
>> Hi Matt;
>> �
>> ��� Your 1.0 over pistons and a the 45hp cam will help, but you need the larger Carb and angle port head with the exhaust headers to pull out the extra hp and rpm's.� I have none of that, in fact I went to standard pistons with a late carb, standard cam, mechanical ignition (in other words stock)�and have no problems in traffic.� I do have an oil cooler on it though because I like the spin on filter�giving it better oil filtering.���
>> �
>> �
>> Bill
>> �
>> �
>> ��
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
>> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:42 PM
>> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
>> �
>> Thanks bill, I understand the limitations of the crank, and that regearing the transmission is out of the realm of reality. �My question was meant to be a little more specific, comparing two specific cams.
>> I have a z600 that I am looking to rebuild the motor in. �I have domed pistons that are 1mm over that I am planning on using. �I also plan on porting the head and running an electronic ignition. �I have a Hawaiian cam that I was going to use, but just came across a "Sig Erson" cam that was mentioned in the magazine article "Rapid Transit" with the Bill Krause modified 600 coupe. �So, my question was what cam will offer the most torque. �I'm not as concerned with top speed as much as it being plenty zippy for in town traffic.
>> Matt
>> On Saturday, January 28, 2012, � wrote:
>>> �
>>> Hi Matt;
Re: Hot cams
Hi Matt;
Sure, Honda of America did the research and found the best and most reliable to be the motor manufactured for this country. Which includes the cam it uses. All the other ones are self destruct units, meaning that internal parts (the oil pump rod, primary transmission shaft bearing, or the needle bearing on the Oil Pump rod) gave up and that single chip floated into the lower end of the Crank shaft and within an hour or so driving time the engine was toast. Come on over if you are in San Diego and see 8 different crankshafts that are no good because of that single chip. Lower and upper end rod problems, main bearing issues and end bearing cage wear.
Build a tight motor and transmission, looking at all the bearings, bearing keepers, good original seals and O rings. New pistons and rings with a straight bore on the cylinders. Have all your bolts zinc or cad plated to minimize electrolysis and bimetallic corrosion. Torque to spec and use a good thread lock to keep everything together. And you will have an enjoyable car to drive.
Remember, small cars get no respect on the freeways or in town, but that's another story.
Bill
Sure, Honda of America did the research and found the best and most reliable to be the motor manufactured for this country. Which includes the cam it uses. All the other ones are self destruct units, meaning that internal parts (the oil pump rod, primary transmission shaft bearing, or the needle bearing on the Oil Pump rod) gave up and that single chip floated into the lower end of the Crank shaft and within an hour or so driving time the engine was toast. Come on over if you are in San Diego and see 8 different crankshafts that are no good because of that single chip. Lower and upper end rod problems, main bearing issues and end bearing cage wear.
Build a tight motor and transmission, looking at all the bearings, bearing keepers, good original seals and O rings. New pistons and rings with a straight bore on the cylinders. Have all your bolts zinc or cad plated to minimize electrolysis and bimetallic corrosion. Torque to spec and use a good thread lock to keep everything together. And you will have an enjoyable car to drive.
Remember, small cars get no respect on the freeways or in town, but that's another story.
Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of
> Matt
> Ferkey
> Sent:
> Sunday, January 29, 2012 2:19 PM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject:
> Re: [anzhonda600owners]
> Hot cams
> I am not trying to make a 10 second 600. I am trying to find my best > options available for the cam in my daily driver. I am not trying to > sound condescending or question your experience, just looking for someones > real world experience with different specific cams in our motors. I > understand that these motors have limits, and trust your expertise, but like > you said, Honda did the research and development and still had different cam > options for the 600.
> Matt
> On Sunday, January 29, 2012, Harry
> Lineback harryl1190@...
> wrote:
> > Bill
> > YOU are such a wise and
> informative leader the Honda 600 community.
> > Thanks for always being
> there and giving so much of your time and energy to this classic > cause.
> > Harry
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > On Jan 29, 2012, at
> 9:26, billmyong@...
> wrote:
> What experience is necessary Matt?
> This is not an argument, just plain facts, the limits of the Honda 600 motor > is all that must be understood. How many Honda 600 motors need to be > rebuilt to discover the limits of the cam. My experience is limited to > the over 800 Honda 600 motors I have rebuilt, restored and modified.
> When you pull apart your first Honda 600 motor that is filled with metal chips > that came from a internal component that failed, you too will understand that > these motors have their limits. These groups are loaded with stories of > modifications that didn't work. Remember, a race car is built for that > race and rebuilt for the next. Reliable transportation came from > testing by Honda of America and the motor was detuned for a > reason.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:00 AM
> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> > So, you do not have any experience with the sig erson
> cam. Does anyone else on this forum know anything about it? I am > interested in learning more about the oil cooler that gives you a spin on oil > filter though. I think that is something that every 600 owner would > benefit from.
> > Matt
> > On Saturday, January 28,
> 2012, billmyong@...
> wrote:
> >> Hi Matt;
> >> Your 1.0 over pistons and a the 45hp cam
> will help, but you need the larger Carb and angle port head with the exhaust > headers to pull out the extra hp and rpm's. I have none of that, in fact > I went to standard pistons with a late carb, standard cam, mechanical ignition > (in other words stock) and have no problems in traffic. I do have > an oil cooler on it though because I like the spin on filter giving it > better oil filtering.
> >> Bill
> >> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> ]On
> Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> >> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:42
> PM
> >> To:
> anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> >> Thanks bill, I understand the limitations of
> the crank, and that regearing the transmission is out of the realm of reality.
> My question was meant to be a little more specific, comparing two > specific cams.
> >> I have a z600 that I am looking to rebuild the
> motor in. I have domed pistons that are 1mm over that I am planning on > using. I also plan on porting the head and running an electronic > ignition. I have a Hawaiian cam that I was going to use, but just came > across a "Sig Erson" cam that was mentioned in the magazine article "Rapid > Transit" with the Bill Krause modified 600 coupe. So, my question was > what cam will offer the most torque. I'm not as concerned with top speed > as much as it being plenty zippy for in town traffic.
> Matt
> >> On Saturday,
> January 28, 2012, billmyong@...
> wrote:
> >>> Hi
> Matt;
Re: Hot cams
I agree with Bill, I have only worked on 2 Honda 600 engines, but lots of racing motorcycle, go-Karts and auto engines over the years. Like Bill and Miles have said in past posts and pictures showing massive failures, the engine is marginal at best in stock USA configuration.
Things I see as weak or problem areas:
*The oil pump.
*The soft crank, flame hardened with rollers.
*#219 Cam chain, rollers and guides all weak.
*Air cooled, very high operating temps.
*Combined engine and transmission oil, only about 3 qts.
*600cc motorcycle engine lugging around 1,500-2,000 lbs. depending on how many people you cram in.
*Engine must turn 6,000+ RPM just to run on a highway.
Don't get me wrong, I like my coupe and Honda was trying to build a cheap car. It is a clever design, but even the Honda engineers gave up on it. I like making things go faster, but this is not a good base to start with.
Just my 2 cents.
Lyle
Things I see as weak or problem areas:
*The oil pump.
*The soft crank, flame hardened with rollers.
*#219 Cam chain, rollers and guides all weak.
*Air cooled, very high operating temps.
*Combined engine and transmission oil, only about 3 qts.
*600cc motorcycle engine lugging around 1,500-2,000 lbs. depending on how many people you cram in.
*Engine must turn 6,000+ RPM just to run on a highway.
Don't get me wrong, I like my coupe and Honda was trying to build a cheap car. It is a clever design, but even the Honda engineers gave up on it. I like making things go faster, but this is not a good base to start with.
Just my 2 cents.
Lyle
--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, wrote:
> Hi Matt;
> Sure, Honda of America did the research and found the best and most
> reliable to be the motor manufactured for this country. Which includes the
> cam it uses. All the other ones are self destruct units, meaning that
> internal parts (the oil pump rod, primary transmission shaft bearing, or the
> needle bearing on the Oil Pump rod) gave up and that single chip floated
> into the lower end of the Crank shaft and within an hour or so driving time
> the engine was toast. Come on over if you are in San Diego and see 8
> different crankshafts that are no good because of that single chip. Lower
> and upper end rod problems, main bearing issues and end bearing cage wear.
> Build a tight motor and transmission, looking at all the bearings,
> bearing keepers, good original seals and O rings. New pistons and rings
> with a straight bore on the cylinders. Have all your bolts zinc or cad
> plated to minimize electrolysis and bimetallic corrosion. Torque to spec
> and use a good thread lock to keep everything together. And you will have
> an enjoyable car to drive.
> Remember, small cars get no respect on the freeways or in town, but
> that's another story.
> Bill
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 2:19 PM
> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> I am not trying to make a 10 second 600. I am trying to find my best
> options available for the cam in my daily driver. I am not trying to sound
> condescending or question your experience, just looking for someones real
> world experience with different specific cams in our motors. I understand
> that these motors have limits, and trust your expertise, but like you said,
> Honda did the research and development and still had different cam options
> for the 600.
> Matt
> On Sunday, January 29, 2012, Harry Lineback
> wrote:
> > Bill
> > YOU are such a wise and informative leader the Honda 600 community.
> > Thanks for always being there and giving so much of your time and energy
> to this classic cause.
> > Harry
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > On Jan 29, 2012, at 9:26, wrote:
> > What experience is necessary Matt? This is not an argument, just
> plain facts, the limits of the Honda 600 motor is all that must be
> understood. How many Honda 600 motors need to be rebuilt to discover the
> limits of the cam. My experience is limited to the over 800 Honda 600
> motors I have rebuilt, restored and modified. When you pull apart your
> first Honda 600 motor that is filled with metal chips that came from a
> internal component that failed, you too will understand that these motors
> have their limits. These groups are loaded with stories of modifications
> that didn't work. Remember, a race car is built for that race and rebuilt
> for the next. Reliable transportation came from testing by Honda of America
> and the motor was detuned for a reason.
> > Bill
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> > Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:00 AM
> > To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> > So, you do not have any experience with the sig erson cam. Does anyone
> else on this forum know anything about it? I am interested in learning more
> about the oil cooler that gives you a spin on oil filter though. I think
> that is something that every 600 owner would benefit from.
> > Matt
> > On Saturday, January 28, 2012, wrote:
> >> Hi Matt;
> >> Your 1.0 over pistons and a the 45hp cam will help, but you need
> the larger Carb and angle port head with the exhaust headers to pull out the
> extra hp and rpm's. I have none of that, in fact I went to standard pistons
> with a late carb, standard cam, mechanical ignition (in other words stock)
> and have no problems in traffic. I do have an oil cooler on it though
> because I like the spin on filter giving it better oil filtering.
> >> Bill
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
]On Behalf Of Matt Ferkey
> >> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:42 PM
> >> To:
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject: Re: [anzhonda600owners] Hot cams
> >> Thanks bill, I understand the limitations of the crank, and that
> regearing the transmission is out of the realm of reality. My question was
> meant to be a little more specific, comparing two specific cams.
> >> I have a z600 that I am looking to rebuild the motor in. I have domed
> pistons that are 1mm over that I am planning on using. I also plan on
> porting the head and running an electronic ignition. I have a Hawaiian cam
> that I was going to use, but just came across a "Sig Erson" cam that was
> mentioned in the magazine article "Rapid Transit" with the Bill Krause
> modified 600 coupe. So, my question was what cam will offer the most
> torque. I'm not as concerned with top speed as much as it being plenty
> zippy for in town traffic.
> >> Matt
> >> On Saturday, January 28, 2012, wrote:
> >>> Hi Matt;