Rocker arm shaft repair

[lyletrudell]

I got quotes from the chrome and grind shops today.
$57-$64/shaft.
I think it's too much and I would need cores from everyone to get those prices.
I might just make myself a couple sets of new shafts when I get some free machine time. I could make the diameters a little larger to fit the slightly worn housing bores. Also increase the offset (.005") to get more adjustment. Of course heat treat them so they will last.
I think I could make them for $45/shaft.
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> I bought 6.5mm lash caps to solve our valve adjustment issue, see lash caps post.
> Now I want to figure out how to repair the worn rocker shafts.
> My plan:
> *Have the large and small diameters ground (.005") undersize. In a cyclindrical grinder between centers.
> *Then chrome plate them (.006").
> *Then finish grind and buff them back to (+.0005") above stock size.
> I don't know of anyone with a cylindrical grinder.
> Any thoughts, been done before?
> Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> Rocker arm shafts worn!
> Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
> I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
> Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard. The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> *Valve ends
> *Rocker arms
> *Cam shaft
> *Rocker shafts
> So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> Why am I doing this?
> Lyle

[lyletrudell]

So far I have found no new rocker shafts in the USA and 3 in England.
They want $46 a piece plus shipping. So about $60/pc. Not that 3 will do me any good!
I will keep looking for a couple NOS sets a while longer.
I could make new ones for that price, plus they would be a better material, harder, slightly larger diameters and have more offset.
I am busy at work now, but I will put this on my "hobby parts to make list".
Once I am set up I could run a few more sets.
This will be a one time run, no money in this stuff.
Anyone interested in a rocker shaft set Email me.
Craft59@...
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> I got quotes from the chrome and grind shops today.
> $57-$64/shaft.
> I think it's too much and I would need cores from everyone to get those prices.
> I might just make myself a couple sets of new shafts when I get some free machine time. I could make the diameters a little larger to fit the slightly worn housing bores. Also increase the offset (.005") to get more adjustment. Of course heat treat them so they will last.
> I think I could make them for $45/shaft.
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > I bought 6.5mm lash caps to solve our valve adjustment issue, see lash caps post.
> > Now I want to figure out how to repair the worn rocker shafts.
> > My plan:
> > *Have the large and small diameters ground (.005") undersize. In a cyclindrical grinder between centers.
> > *Then chrome plate them (.006").
> > *Then finish grind and buff them back to (+.0005") above stock size.
> > I don't know of anyone with a cylindrical grinder.
> > Any thoughts, been done before?
> > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > Rocker arm shafts worn!
> > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
> > I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> > By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> > After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
> > Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> > I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard. The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> > *Valve ends
> > *Rocker arms
> > *Cam shaft
> > *Rocker shafts
> > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > Why am I doing this?
> > Lyle

[Marshall]

You are clearly a perfectionist Lyle.... & meticulous in you're approach to this little engine. It's with frustration that I myself resign myself to having to live with wear conditions within my engines that I would much prefer to correct.
Making good with the "Sticky tape & string" approach has existed in all aspects of engineering since the creation of the nut & bolt....HaHa !
Here we all are with a common interest in keeping these little engines running. All in All, I have always been surprised at how forgiving they can be as far as going well over Honda's recommended wear limits.
When Honda say to replace a rocker arm after 0.3mm face wear, they have got to be kidding. That,s not going to happen in my World.
At the same time the valve timing of the 1970 engine is changed from that of the 1969 engine as follows :
Inlet Valve open from zero to five degrees BTDC, close from forty to twenty degrees ABDC. Exhaust Valve open... no change at forty degrees BBDC, close from zero to ten degrees ATDC.
I am not too concerned when wear brings about a valve timing loss which would have to be measured in minutes rather than degrees.
Such is life & the cost of living.
Marshall.

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> So far I have found no new rocker shafts in the USA and 3 in England.
> They want $46 a piece plus shipping. So about $60/pc. Not that 3 will do me any good!
> I will keep looking for a couple NOS sets a while longer.
> I could make new ones for that price, plus they would be a better material, harder, slightly larger diameters and have more offset.
> I am busy at work now, but I will put this on my "hobby parts to make list".
> Once I am set up I could run a few more sets.
> This will be a one time run, no money in this stuff.
> Anyone interested in a rocker shaft set Email me.
> Craft59@...
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > I got quotes from the chrome and grind shops today.
> > $57-$64/shaft.
> > I think it's too much and I would need cores from everyone to get those prices.
> > I might just make myself a couple sets of new shafts when I get some free machine time. I could make the diameters a little larger to fit the slightly worn housing bores. Also increase the offset (.005") to get more adjustment. Of course heat treat them so they will last.
> > I think I could make them for $45/shaft.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > I bought 6.5mm lash caps to solve our valve adjustment issue, see lash caps post.
> > > Now I want to figure out how to repair the worn rocker shafts.
> > > My plan:
> > > *Have the large and small diameters ground (.005") undersize. In a cyclindrical grinder between centers.
> > > *Then chrome plate them (.006").
> > > *Then finish grind and buff them back to (+.0005") above stock size.
> > > I don't know of anyone with a cylindrical grinder.
> > > Any thoughts, been done before?
> > > Lyle
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Rocker arm shafts worn!
> > > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > > As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
> > > I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> > > By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> > > After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
> > > Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> > > I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> > > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > > One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard. The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> > > *Valve ends
> > > *Rocker arms
> > > *Cam shaft
> > > *Rocker shafts
> > > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > > I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > > Why am I doing this?
> > > Lyle

[lyletrudell]

Marshall, I do have a problem with going to far with stuff. Not sure what mental health issue my condition falls under.
Maybe because my trade demands such tight tolerances and controls.....
I do love working on mechanical things as my hobby and it's fun and relaxing for me, and it keeps me out of the bars.
We have a few members that do most of the posting and I have learned a lot from them.
I take a simple approach, read as much as I can find about a thing, take it apart, measure it, fix, replace, improve...
I am not saying my way is best, just posting what I have found and what I know about it.
You folks can add to the post, disagree with it, whatever.
Then we update the info and we have a useful post for others.
You guys don't know me, and most of the members in this club I will never meet. So we are stuck with writing to each other, it's hard to write a couple lines of info and get your point across.
OK, back to Honda stuff.
Nobody wants to use worn parts, our biggest problem is we have no cheap supply of new parts!
Yes, I will try and use some old worn parts!
Marshall, what brand of "Sticky tape & string" do you use?
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "Marshall" wrote:
> You are clearly a perfectionist Lyle.... & meticulous in you're approach to this little engine. It's with frustration that I myself resign myself to having to live with wear conditions within my engines that I would much prefer to correct.
> Making good with the "Sticky tape & string" approach has existed in all aspects of engineering since the creation of the nut & bolt....HaHa !
> Here we all are with a common interest in keeping these little engines running. All in All, I have always been surprised at how forgiving they can be as far as going well over Honda's recommended wear limits.
> When Honda say to replace a rocker arm after 0.3mm face wear, they have got to be kidding. That,s not going to happen in my World.
> At the same time the valve timing of the 1970 engine is changed from that of the 1969 engine as follows :
> Inlet Valve open from zero to five degrees BTDC, close from forty to twenty degrees ABDC. Exhaust Valve open... no change at forty degrees BBDC, close from zero to ten degrees ATDC.
> I am not too concerned when wear brings about a valve timing loss which would have to be measured in minutes rather than degrees.
> Such is life & the cost of living.
> Marshall.
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > So far I have found no new rocker shafts in the USA and 3 in England.
> > They want $46 a piece plus shipping. So about $60/pc. Not that 3 will do me any good!
> > I will keep looking for a couple NOS sets a while longer.
> > I could make new ones for that price, plus they would be a better material, harder, slightly larger diameters and have more offset.
> > I am busy at work now, but I will put this on my "hobby parts to make list".
> > Once I am set up I could run a few more sets.
> > This will be a one time run, no money in this stuff.
> > Anyone interested in a rocker shaft set Email me.
> > Craft59@
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > I got quotes from the chrome and grind shops today.
> > > $57-$64/shaft.
> > > I think it's too much and I would need cores from everyone to get those prices.
> > > I might just make myself a couple sets of new shafts when I get some free machine time. I could make the diameters a little larger to fit the slightly worn housing bores. Also increase the offset (.005") to get more adjustment. Of course heat treat them so they will last.
> > > I think I could make them for $45/shaft.
> > > Lyle
> > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > > I bought 6.5mm lash caps to solve our valve adjustment issue, see lash caps post.
> > > > Now I want to figure out how to repair the worn rocker shafts.
> > > > My plan:
> > > > *Have the large and small diameters ground (.005") undersize. In a cyclindrical grinder between centers.
> > > > *Then chrome plate them (.006").
> > > > *Then finish grind and buff them back to (+.0005") above stock size.
> > > > I don't know of anyone with a cylindrical grinder.
> > > > Any thoughts, been done before?
> > > > Lyle
> > > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > > Rocker arm shafts worn!
> > > > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > > > As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
> > > > I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> > > > By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> > > > After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
> > > > Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> > > > I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> > > > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > > > One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard. The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> > > > *Valve ends
> > > > *Rocker arms
> > > > *Cam shaft
> > > > *Rocker shafts
> > > > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > > > I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > > > Why am I doing this?
> > > > Lyle

[lyletrudell]

Already have a few people interested in the new rocker shafts.
I know you guys don't know me or what kind of work I do.
In a nut shell;
I am a balding, 50 year old journeyman Tool&Die maker, I have my own small shop and I make components for Medical, Aerospace and commercial companies. I have CNC and manual machines and use quality/calibrated inspection tools.
Oh, I also like making parts for vintage bikes and unusual cars!
Here is my temp Website, yes it's really bad and out of date, I need to find someone to make it look better. Machinist are good at only one thing.
http://tru-craft.com/
Just to let you know, I will charge no money up front.
I will quote them for a price and that price will be good, even if I lose money.
This is a hobby project, so it will come second to my real work....my kid needs new shoes!
This will be a one time run, I will probably not start anything until the end of the month. I will post the basic design and improvements to the old shafts, all ideas are welcome.
Before I start we should still see if we can find someone with NOS shafts.
Lyle

--- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> So far I have found no new rocker shafts in the USA and 3 in England.
> They want $46 a piece plus shipping. So about $60/pc. Not that 3 will do me any good!
> I will keep looking for a couple NOS sets a while longer.
> I could make new ones for that price, plus they would be a better material, harder, slightly larger diameters and have more offset.
> I am busy at work now, but I will put this on my "hobby parts to make list".
> Once I am set up I could run a few more sets.
> This will be a one time run, no money in this stuff.
> Anyone interested in a rocker shaft set Email me.
> Craft59@...
> Lyle
> --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > I got quotes from the chrome and grind shops today.
> > $57-$64/shaft.
> > I think it's too much and I would need cores from everyone to get those prices.
> > I might just make myself a couple sets of new shafts when I get some free machine time. I could make the diameters a little larger to fit the slightly worn housing bores. Also increase the offset (.005") to get more adjustment. Of course heat treat them so they will last.
> > I think I could make them for $45/shaft.
> > Lyle
> > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > I bought 6.5mm lash caps to solve our valve adjustment issue, see lash caps post.
> > > Now I want to figure out how to repair the worn rocker shafts.
> > > My plan:
> > > *Have the large and small diameters ground (.005") undersize. In a cyclindrical grinder between centers.
> > > *Then chrome plate them (.006").
> > > *Then finish grind and buff them back to (+.0005") above stock size.
> > > I don't know of anyone with a cylindrical grinder.
> > > Any thoughts, been done before?
> > > Lyle
> > > > --- In
anzhonda600owners@yahoogroups.com
, "lyletrudell" wrote:
> > > Rocker arm shafts worn!
> > > Wow, fix one thing and find something else to fix!
> > > As you can see from my posts I am trying to rebuild my 600 engine to be as good or hopefully better than stock.
> > > I have worked on many engines over the years, don't claim to be an expert, I learn something new everytime I work on mechanical things.....Fun!
> > > By seeing lots of engines apart you can start to understand how all engines work, but they all have differences, poor designs and weak points.
> > > After seeing this engine apart and measuring everything, I would consider this engine a 50K mile motor at best, like a cheap motorcycle. Now add high RPM's, high temperatures and poor maintenance and we have an engine that won't last.
> > > Luckily we have other members who have dealt with these issues.
> > > I was reading past posts from Bill & Miles to learn about problem areas. Thanks guys!
> > > I have 8 rocker arm shafts from 2 engines and they are all worn on top. Both small and large diameters have about (.004"-.005") wear from the valve spring pressure pushing up on them.
> > > One good thing is that the cam housing bores are in great shape!Only (.001") wear max on the bores. Honda must have used a high silicon content in their aluminum, this makes it very hard. The problem with this type valve design is we run out of adjustment as the parts wear! (.002") wear on each part adds up fast!
> > > *Valve ends
> > > *Rocker arms
> > > *Cam shaft
> > > *Rocker shafts
> > > So I need to find NOS rocker shafts.
> > > I don't want to have to nickle/chrome plate my old ones oversize and then re-grind them back to size. Not a cheap thing to do.
> > > Why am I doing this?
> > > Lyle